Is it worth trying to fix 4e?

[Ravengm]

So, I'll be going back to school in a couple months, and my DM for the time wants to use 4e. So, since I want to play a controller that actually is a controller (not the current Wizard), is it worth it to make a new class? Or should I just resign myself to playing a different class? I've considered options from the Illusionist to Shadowcaster to Truenamer. It's feasible to make basically anything, as long as I can pass it through the DM (i.e. no splatting).

[angelfromanotherpin]

4e has a couple of ideas in it that don't suck, but it is irredeemable.

[Username17]

Making a new class is actually very little work. Let's say you wanted to make something that "controls" things and was a Psion. Now, to make a full class you'd theoretically want at least two shticks for the class, and 4 Encounter powers and 3 Daily powers at each level so that nominally two random characters of exactly the same type wouldn't be exactly the same type. In reality however, the class you happen to be playing is actually going to be a stand alone character, so you only really need one solitary ability choice at each level and two At-Wills to select between (note: you won't be playing a Human, so who gives a fuck about the 3rd at-will?).

Psionicist
“Feel the wrath of my mighty mind!”

Class Traits

• Role: Controller
  Power Source: Psionic
  Key Abilities: Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution
  
  Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather
  Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
  Implements: Orbs, Rods
  Bonus to Defense: +1 Will, +1 Fortitude
  
  Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + Constitution
  Hit Points per Level Gained: 4
  Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution Modifier
  
  Trained Skills: Insight and from the class list below, choose 3:
  • Class Skills: Arcana, Bluff, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Insight, Perception, Streetwise.
  Class Features: Soul Knife, Stalk the Senseless, Mind Over Matter.

Soul Knife
You may treat a light blade as an implement.

Stalk the Senseless
You have invisibility to stunned and dazed creatures.

Mind Over Matter
You may push your brain to the limits of what your body is capable of handling. Once per encounter you may add your Constitution modifier to the damage you inflict against an opponent.

• Mind Over Matter
  “Drawing upon the last reserves of the body, the mind pushes itself to things it thought impossible.”
  Encounter ✦ Psionic, Psychic
  Free Action
  Effect: Use when you have hit a target with a Psionic power, inflict your Constitution modifier in additional psychic damage to one target.

Level 1 At-Will Disciplines

Ego Whip
“A brutal and invisible mental lash strikes out at the target's very mind.”
At-Will ✦ Psionic, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Will

• Hit: 1d6 + Wisdom modifier psychic damage. Target is dazed until the end of your next turn.
  Increase Damage to 2d6 + Wisdom modifier at 21st level.

Telekinetic Grasp
“The psychic powers of the psionicist manifest as pure force constricting and strangling the target.”
At-Will ✦ Psionic, Implement, Force
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex

• Hit: 1d6 + Wisdom modifier force damage. Target is immobilized until the end of your next turn.
  Increase Damage to 2d6 + Wisdom modifier at 21st level.

Level 1 Encounter Disciplines

Thought Steal
“You take a portion of the target's mind, learning their strategies.”
Encounter ✦ Psionic, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Will

• Hit: 2d6 + Wisdom modifier psychic damage. All allies have combat advantage against the target until the end of the encounter.

Level 1 Daily Disciplines

Force of Will
“The target is hurled by psychic force across the ground, coming to a stop smashed and battered.”
Daily ✦ Psionic, Implement, Reliable, Force
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex

• Hit: 2d8 + Wisdom modifier force damage. You may push target up to your Constitution modifier in squares (minimum 1). Target is dazed until the end of your next turn.

Level 2 Utility Disciplines

Probability Travel
“Concentrating slightly, you adjust your location without passing through intervening space.”
At-Will ✦ Psionic, Teleportation
Move Action
Effect: Teleport 2 squares.

Level 3 Encounter Disciplines

Id Insinuation
“Wicked and treacherous thoughts are pushed into the target's mind.”
Encounter ✦ Psionic, Implement, Charm, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature.
Attack: Wisdom vs. Will

• Hit: 1d8 + Wisdom modifier psychic damage. Target becomes dazed until the end of your next turn. Target immediately makes a single basic attack against a target of your choice.

Level 5 Daily Disciplines

Telefrag
“You teleport directly into an enemy, displacing them destructively.”
Daily ✦ Psionic, Weapon or Implement, Reliable, Teleportation
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. Reflex

• Hit: Target is pushed your Wisdom modifier in squares (minimum 1), and suffers 3d10 + Constitution modifier damage. Target is dazed (Save ends). You teleport to the square the target was originally in.

Level 6 Utility Disciplines

Tower of Iron Will
“A wave of psychic energy overwhelms all sense and reason.”
Encounter ✦ Psionic, Implement, Psychic
Immediate Interrupt
Trigger: An attack hits your Will defense.
Effect: The attack has no effect on you or any other target.

Level 7 Encounter Disciplines

Psionic Blast
“A wave of psychic energy overwhelms all sense and reason.”
Encounter ✦ Psionic, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action Close blast 5
Target: All creatures in area.
Attack: Wisdom vs. Will

• Hit: 2d8 + Wisdom modifier psychic damage. Target is dazed until end of your next turn.
  Miss: Half damage and target is not dazed.

Level 9 Daily Disciplines

Probability Manipulation
“Things just work out. The psionicist blurs and then is somewhere else, out of harm's way.”
Daily ✦ Psionic, Teleportation
Immediate Reaction
Trigger: An opponent hits you with an attack
Target: One creature.
Attack: Constitution vs. Will

• Hit: Target is dazed until the end of your next turn.

Effect: The attack misses and has no effect on you. Until the end of your next turn, you gain a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier against the target who attacked you. Until the end of your next turn, you gain a bonus to all defenses equal to your Dexterity modifier. You may immediately teleport a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum 1).

Level 10 Utility Disciplines

Mental Barrier
“A wall of force appears as hard as stone.”
Daily ✦ Psionic, Conjuration, Force
Standard Action Wall 6 within 10.
Effect: You create a wall of mental force that is up to 6 squares long and 4 squares high. This wall is as tough as stone.

----

And so on. I mean, at this point you have to choose your prospective Paragon Path, but since you're making it for just one character you don't really have to make more than one.

-Username17

[Fwib]

I am impressed.

Shouldn't Probability manipulation be an interrupt, not a reaction?

What does WotC's new own_your_soul license say about stuff like this? Am I right in thinking they'd hate you for doing their job for free?

[edit] I shall be interested to compare WotC's psionicist when it comes out.

[Psychic Robot]

I like how Frank has simultaneously invented a new class and made the 4e system a laughingstock in the same post.

[Ravengm]

I like how Frank has simultaneously invented a new class and made the 4e system a laughingstock in the same post.

And therefore it goes to show that just by making a new class you create a laughingstock of the system.

This should be an interesting campaign....

[Jerry]

Making a new class is actually very little work.

For people who know what they're doing and have been doing it for 7+ years. Face it Frank, designing fun rules variants on Internet Message Boards is your calling.

[Voss]

Frank is pretty good, but 4e is particularly easy. You know exactly how much damage a power should do at a given level, and what sort of effects are level appropriate. (And its also easy to point to the handful that actually matter).

But to answer the original question:

No. There are a few ideas to salvage, but honestly most of them have been kicking around for a while anyway. I've yet to talk to anyone who can defend it beyond repeating 'Optimization isn't the only thing that matters'. Though they can't come up with anything else that matters either (besides magical tea party, which you don't need 4e for), and when you point out that, in 4e, optimization is the only thing that matters, they just start sulking.

A fun thread on ENworld has people suggesting that anyone that isn't optimized deserve to fail, and any system that supports that is a good thing.

[Calibron]

Making a new class is actually very little work.

For people who know what they're doing and have been doing it for 7+ years. Face it Frank, designing fun rules variants on Internet Message Boards is your calling.

Actually making a class is easy, for 3.X someone on Frank or Keith's level can throw one down basically immediately if they've already been thinking about the basic concept for a little while; most of the competent designers around here(I'd like to humbly include myself in that category) can put one together in anywhere from an hour or two to a day or two, depending on the complexity and level of inspiration, and some of us haven't really been designing for more than a year(and unlike Frank we aren't real published game designers). 4th edition is significantly easier to design for than 3.X, as has been mentioned, even accounting for its relative unfamiliarity to, well, just about everybody.

What is hard is designing new systems from whole cloth(like TNE), or making massive rules changes that are almost whole new systems unto themselves(like the Tomes). These things are beyond many of the talented amateurs here, sure as hell beyond me, but not all. The_Taken, for example, manages to create an entirely new game, and often an entirely new system to go along with it, several times a year all on his(her?) own; never ceases to amaze me.

[Koumei]

Telefrag

You are my hero, Frank.

Oddly enough, I have been doing the opposite of this: converting the 4E Warlock to 3E, because the ideas in it seem salvageable if put into a system that isn't utter balls (and then scaled in power to that setting).

[RandomCasualty2]

I do feel that 4E is worth saving. It has a few very good redeeming factors:

-It has a simple and easy way to make and modify monsters, making on the fly DMing much easier.
-The system does well at staying on the RNG.
-The 4E classes are much closer in power than the 3E classes. So in 4E, a fighter and a wizard are really playing the same game.
-There are minimal loopholes to plug. A few broken powers (Blade cascade, orb of imposition, ward of binding), but not many.


Now, the main problems with 4E :

-You don't get nearly enough powers. 4E has longer combats than 3E, only you actually get fewer powers. And that sucks.
-The rituals suck ass. This whole section needs to be rewritten.
-A lot of the powers are kind of boring. Powers like silent image are missing.
-Monsters (solo in particular) have way too many Hp

To fix these:

Double the powers (other than at will) you get per level. So instead of one encounter, daily or utility power, you get two.

The rituals section probably needs a full rewrite, which means it's the most work you'll be doing on fixing 4E, fortunately you can incrementally write them as you play, since they may not all be available at each given level.

As for boring powers, 4E is going to come out with supplements, which I think will reintroduce interesting powers into your game.

TO fix monster HP, just cut them by a percentage. Like 66%, 75% or 50% are numbers you'd probably want to try. Though giving out double the number of encounter and daily powers will probably fix this problem to some extent.

[Koumei]

As for boring powers, 4E is going to come out with supplements, which I think will reintroduce interesting powers into your game.

You're certainly optimistic.

I think people will need to make their own interesting powers.

Damage could actually scale properly as an alternative to cutting HP down.
But one or the other needs doing.

A rewrite of the saving throw mechanic would be nice - as it is, the only time you'll ever care enough to use a spell with "Save ends" is if that's just a side-dish to a useful non-save effect, or if you're an Orb Wizard. It's the standard "It's useless unless you use something broken." situation WotC are known for.

[Username17]

RC, you forgot to mention that the Skill Challenge system is fuxxored beyond redemption. It's like looking into a fractal of failure. The more layers you peel away with fixes the more you find that it still fucked up. Every single part of the skill challenges doesn't work. The DCs don't work, the success/failure system doesn't work, the cooperative effects don't work, the complexities don't work, it all doesn't work.

The skill challenge system, the thing that all the no-combat action rests upon, does not work. Have you looked at what happens when you are exposed to a disease at any level? You get blinding sickness and... you fucking go blind. Even Dwarves go blind a noticable amount of the time. The tests are largely for show because the DCs are set such that even Dwarf Inferlocks with Endurance have a substantial chance of failing the tests. Except that Inferlocks don't even get Endurance. There aren't any Constitution based classes that get Endurance. And yet, at 12th level you need to roll a 28 to improve your Cackle Fever condition. That is never going to happen. A 12th level Fighter has like a Con of 14 and Endurance - he needs a 15+ to pass. A 12th level Inferlock has a a Constition of 23 and needs a 16+. It's lose/lose no matter who you are or what you do.

No idea how that made it through playtesting. Get hit by a disease and you march steadily to the end and cry.

-Username17

[RiotGearEpsilon]

I think that's intentional. You're supposed to use a cure ritual.

[MartinHarper]

-The rituals suck ass. This whole section needs to be rewritten.

Could someone remind me what the problems with rituals are? I understand that they're too expensive for what they do, but is there more to it than that? Or, if I just reduced all costs to 10%, would that fix it?

[baduin]

Problem: D&D has some interesting base rules. On the other hand other rules are stupid, classes and powers are boring. Additionally, the new licence is bad.

Circumstances: The rules cannot be copyrighted. Classes and powers probably can, and their names can be trademarked. D&D 3e SRD already provides a lot of classes and spells, which can be easily converted to other rules.

Solution: Create a 4e-like OGL game with reasonable powers and classes. For bonus points, it should be more or less compatible with 4e Monster Manual and adventures, at least on heroic level. (Epic monsters seem boring in 4e).

[Username17]

The thing is that the Damage/Hit Points system, while classic, doesn't really seem to have a lot of purpose.


Good(ish):

• The Encounter / Daily / At Will system is really easy to understand.
• They showed remarkable discipline in staying on the RNG.
• Characters stay in clear sight of one another in terms of power level at all level.
• Monsters are potentially tactically interesting and unique, and some of them live up to this promise.

Problematic:

• Everyone stays pretty much in exactly the same place vis a vis each other on the RNG. That means that everyone is pretty much interchangeable and nothing you do really matters. While it's important for people to be on the RNG with each other and not wildly diverge, the pendulum has swung too far and people normally don't even care what abilities they use or what tactics they employ.
• Hit Points and Damage Dice actually don't stay constant or even close to it relatively speaking, causing the game to degrade into padded sumo anyways.
• Abilities don't differ one from another enough to actually care. PArtly this has to do with the sameness of defenses, I genuinely don't give a crap if my Wizard is shooting Ice or Thunder at people for example, but a large segment of it is that the abilities themselves are constrained by design principle to be virtually identical.
• The character design system is very rigid. There are two Paladin builds, 2 Cleric builds, and two Wizard builds. There are no meaningful hybrid builds.
• The designers demonstrated a complete lack of discipline when it comes to designing monsters, handing out what is in essence the exact same abilities to nearly identical monsters that use completely different rules, leaving the game with a gradual but essentially never ending learning curve.

Bad:

• No one gets near enough abilities at any level. Look at the descriptions of what the Tron Paladin or the Sword Fighter can "do" - it isn't much. All their disparate abilities are directly interchangeable, but beyond that they have so few of them that even if they did stand different enough to care about they still simply come in such short supply that they would be bring anyway.
• The math behind non combat interactions of all kinds is so atrocious that I have no frickin clue what they were thinking. Skill challenges, diseases, rituals, all of it has to be scrapped entirely and replaced by something else that is at best "inspired by" what they actually printed.
• All math in the game is predicated on the idea that everyone is min/maxing their big numbers, but the game offers the choice to not do that, which gets you nothing and makes you fall off the RNG. If crossing all Ts is mandatory, then not crossing Ts should not be an option.

So that's where we stand. There is a design principle at work there that is powerful and enlightening. But all the actual design work pretty much has to be scrapped.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

-The rituals suck ass. This whole section needs to be rewritten.

Could someone remind me what the problems with rituals are? I understand that they're too expensive for what they do, but is there more to it than that? Or, if I just reduced all costs to 10%, would that fix it?

As far as I'm concerned, the problem is that they cost at all. Rituals are seriously like buying wands in 3.5, but less useful. You are permanently expending valuable resources for an effect that might make thing slightly easier, but you could probably get by just putting more work into it.

Disenchant/Enchant, Cure, and maybe Comprehend Languages for something we have to decipher is about all I'd ever use.

I'm not paying 5000gp to teleport once, thanks.

[Maxus]

It might be more worthwhile if certain rituals imbued permanent powers on the focus of the ritual.

Like the teleport example. Do the ritual, have another person be the guinea pig, and forever afterwards they can teleport the party once or twice a day, every day.

Which actually might be a nice way of giving an underperforming character something to contribute to the party. Oh, wait. It's 4e. Everyone contributes the same damn thing.

[Koumei]

Oh, wait. It's 4e. Everyone contributes the same damn thing.

In the exact same way, too.

And really, I' see them to all be underperforming.

[RandomCasualty2]

RC, you forgot to mention that the Skill Challenge system is fuxxored beyond redemption. It's like looking into a fractal of failure. The more layers you peel away with fixes the more you find that it still fucked up. Every single part of the skill challenges doesn't work. The DCs don't work, the success/failure system doesn't work, the cooperative effects don't work, the complexities don't work, it all doesn't work.

Well, I left that out only because I'm comparing it to 3.5, and the 3.5 skill system honestly isn't any better. 4E skills have the advantage of at least being on the same RNG, which if nothing else, puts them above 3.5 skills in that you can now actually use them for something that matters in game without risking breaking the game.

I's also the reason I left off the damage to objects rules as well. Because they're something that's fucked to all hell in 3.5 too. The problem is actually slightly worse in 4E I think, because objects have well, no hardness at all by default. But it's not like any 1st level fighter couldn't go dungeon tunneling through stone walls if he wanted with no consequences in either edition.

Have you looked at what happens when you are exposed to a disease at any level? You get blinding sickness and... you fucking go blind.

Well I guess I don't really have too much of a problem with that. Diseases are supposed to be pretty nasty stuff you want to get cured. I hated the old 3.5 diseases where you were pretty much like "Oh, devil fever? Whatever."

I mean, you honestly didn't even care. The effects were minor and it was one paladin's touch or cleric's spell away from getting cured forever. Diseases were just plain laughable in 3.5. In 4E, you better have someone with the heal skill or the cure disease ritual standing by.

Could someone remind me what the problems with rituals are?

Basically many of them just suck. Knock for instance means you sit there for 10 minutes trying to unlock a door. Detect secret doors is horrible. Scrying lasts for a maximum of 5 rounds and is an epic ritual!

There is no way to upgrade existing magic items with enchant item.

The divinations are so loosely worded that it's easy to use them to disrupt the game.

Really, the entire ritual section has to go.

You're certainly optimistic.

Well, I don't know if I'd say optimistic, more like the fact that I've looked at my house rules to 3.5, and they're huge. I mean lets look at Frank and K's tomes, and count how many pages are in there. A complete rewrite of the feats section for the most part, a rewrite of pretty much every noncaster class. Several spell fixes and rewrites. Then a bunch of world building rules and the like.

Now that's certainly a lot.

The other problem is that it's based on rules modification, which can be bad because it confuses people. I know this because I get confused sometimes with my own house rules. Not only do people generally learn what the rules actually say, but they now have to know that you're using a variant. I get confused sometimes, so I really can't blame my players.

At the very least in 4E, changes would be for the most part additive, meaning that at most you're just creating your own supplements, and people generally have an easier time remembering new stuff rather than changes to old stuff.

All math in the game is predicated on the idea that everyone is min/maxing their big numbers, but the game offers the choice to not do that, which gets you nothing and makes you fall off the RNG. If crossing all Ts is mandatory, then not crossing Ts should not be an option.

Yeah, I attribute this to the fact that the designers seemed to really realize the 6 ability score system sucks, but I think they were prevented from removing it outright due to the sacred cow factor. So instead we get something that's half a 6 ability score system and half a 3 ability score system.

The character design system is very rigid. There are two Paladin builds, 2 Cleric builds, and two Wizard builds. There are no meaningful hybrid builds.

Yeah, they made it way too difficult to be any kind of hybrid. I'm thinking maybe adding a class that allows you to select a power from any two class lists (that you pick at char creation), but has only minimal class abilities. That would allow a variety of more builds.

[Username17]

Yeah, they made it way too difficult to be any kind of hybrid. I'm thinking maybe adding a class that allows you to select a power from any two class lists (that you pick at char creation), but has only minimal class abilities. That would allow a variety of more builds.

The big problem I see is that classes aren't really that different. I mean sure, if you have a Rogue ability you have to use a light blade or a sling, while if you have a Warlock ability you have to be carrying a big piece of wood that you are for whatever magical reason incapable of hitting people with, but the abilities really are not super different. A Rogue attack does a d6+Dex damage with a short sword and allows you to shift 2 space before you attack. A Warlock attack does a d6+Con damage and doubles if your enemy hits you before next turn, but neither one of those is especially different inherently. If you rolled one or the other into the other class noone would notice.

So even mixing and matching powers wouldn't give much variety or depth of builds, because all the powers are still pretty much identical. The only thing you really get from mixing powers from multiple classes is an unfunded mandate to max different stats and an unfunded mandate to purchase multiple level appropriate weapons that work on all your abilities. It costs a lot of gold to have a level appropriate short sword and a level appropriate Rod.

-Username17

[Ravengm]

One of the biggest problems I have is that if you choose a class, you're stuck with one of the two archetypical character builds they've written powers for. My Inferlock isn't going to take Fey powers, because he will suck with them.

Not only that, but I'm doomed to blow my wad of powers all over the first solo monster I encounter. Or, just look at any level-appropriate encounter. Their total HP value is generally about the same as a solo monster of that level. It's dumb.

I think that doubling the amount of powers you get every level (aside from the at-wills, but then again, who gives a fvck about those anyway) would significantly help out. Reducing the HP of monsters would be more complicated, and in my opinion unnecessary.

Honestly, instead of using the skill challenges, I'd rather just leave most of the decisions to DM fiat. It'd give me better odds of success.

And at this point, I'm looking at the game as if the rituals didn't even exist. They basically said "Everyone is now a UMD rogue" and gave you a grocery list of scrolls to buy. If I only get to scry on something for 3 rounds, I sure as hell don't want to pay 31,000 gp to do so.


There really needs to be some difference between classes. Maybe if fighters and Trons had combo chains, and some caster powers had an effect beyond a 1-turn "you kind of suck now" ability.

[Maxus]

Increasing the frequency of the powers might help, too. 3-4 times an encounter, and 3-4 times a day, to throw our a reasonable number. Or, hell, make them do more damage as they get up higher.

I'd actually give Fighters a crawling mechanic. What start off as their daily powers, become encounter powers, become at-wills, as they master the physical skills needed to perform the tricks. So, yeah.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

One of the biggest problems I have is that if you choose a class, you're stuck with one of the two archetypical character builds they've written powers for. My Inferlock isn't going to take Fey powers, because he will suck with them.

That seems to differ a lot between the classes, though. The cleric builds really are straitjackets because most powers are either implement powers based on Wisdom or weapon powers based on Strength. OTOH, it looks to me like they didn't do a particularly good job of pigeonholing the fighter builds (though the encounter powers are heavily dependent on your choice of weapon once you hit Level 11+), and rangers have a lot of powers that can be done by either build.