Why do they hold back the cool toys until level 25-30?

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

The more I look at the Demigod, the more I like it. The crowning level 30 ability, that to never run out of encounter powers, is as sweet and flavorful as anything you're ever going to get in 4th Edition D&D.

Ultimately, though, that's just retarded. You know what's stupider than frontloading classes? Backloading them. At least when you frontload a class, you get all of the cool toys now. There's no guarantee that your campaign will ever get to level 30. So in the meantime you're enduring months or even years of suckage for a payoff that will probably never happen.

What the heck? I know Andy Collins got small in the pants when he realized that a single-classed barbarian was always inferior to a fighter/rogue/barbarian/whatever the fuck, but the problem wasn't the goddamn fighter/rogue/barbarian/whatever the fuck, the problem was his damn barbarian he loved so much!

It's just stupid. I don't want to slog through months of a game before my character does something interesting. Who designed this crap, anyway?

[Psychic Robot]

TWho designed this crap, anyway?

Not it.

[shau]

Because the masses love it. The biggest complaint the WotC posters had about the rogue was the fact that it had no capstone ability at level 20. All the other dead levels were fine, but level 20 was different. Level 20 needed to be special.

Its the same thing here. The promise of one day being able to never run out of encounter powers is bringing more joy than the ability to actually never run out of encounter powers.

[K]

TWho designed this crap, anyway?

Not it.

Not it.

---------------------

Yeh. People like capstone powers, despite the fact that once you get a 30th level power you have maybe on or two adventures left with that character.

Personally, I don't see why someone can't just be a demigod. Make it feat chain or something.

But, the actual power is broken, so that can't actually be a choice. Getting something broken for your last adventure is a time honored tradition in DnD, but then so is having Fighters who follow around Wizards who are better than them in every way.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Because the masses love it. The biggest complaint the WotC posters had about the rogue was the fact that it had no capstone ability at level 20. All the other dead levels were fine, but level 20 was different. Level 20 needed to be special.

What's so special about maximum level?

Seriously, what is so special about maximum level?

As far as I can tell, all it does is allow you to buy shaggy dog equipment like vorpal weapons and if you're using 'Epic Level' (which I guess will have to be called 'Legendary Level' from now on) expansions it's just a speedbump.

In fact, in core 3.X D&D, you probably didn't want a capstone ability, since it just screwed people who multiclassed even further.

[virgil]

Max level is the little mechanical rabbit on the race track that tells you that you won the game. So very many MMOs work on this principle, because the carrot works and has worked. The ones without the carrot are generally the ones that care more about quest completion, which requires more work to design if you intend the game to continue.

[Username17]

Yeah, just go to Paizo and watch the wankery over the 20th level abilities. People would argue back and forth if this 20th level ability or that other one were broken or too weak or whatever - and almost no one came out and said "You're never going to get these powers for more than like a single game, so it doesn't really matter, does it? Let's concentrate on the 1st and 5th level abilities: the ones people actually use."

A lot of discussion on the internet is entirely theoretical and not geared towards a real game at all. And that's why it pays such incredibly disproportionate attention to the world's hardest metal and the world's highest level and shit. And since WotC design is based on internet discussion and not on real playtesting, they keep focusing on the maximum level as if it mattered more than everything else: just like the CharOp boards and for good reason.

Now I will say that a boss fight with 30th level demigods sounds like the most painful thing in my entire life. The demigod wizard recycles his Thunderkiss, the demigod Fighter recycles Anvil of Doom, and so on and so forth. Orcis only gets a turn when all five player characters miss. It's... completely lame.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Remember how much people on the WotC boards screamed and cried over various Tome classes (example: The Warlock That Doesn't Suck) not going to level 20 and thus not having a capstone ability?

[angelfromanotherpin]

One of the core elements of D&D was that someday your character will be really cool. You know, if you can make it through all the hazing and bullshit up until then. Eventually, people got sick of that shit and started designing games with the premise that your character is really cool right now, but the dangled donkey-carrot aspect of D&D has continued to influence game design up until the present day.

[JonSetanta]

It's like college.
You'll get your degree. Someday. Maybe.
... If you don't run out of money, patience, or learning capacity first.

[ubernoob]

It's like college.
You'll get your degree. Someday. Maybe.
... If you don't run out of money, patience, or learning capacity first.

Wouldn't college take less time than reaching level 30 though?

[Voss]

Actually, no. 4e proposes that it takes about 8-10 encounters to get a level. So 30 levels is 240-300 encounters. You can seriously do 4-5 encounters a day if you really try. So thats like... 2 months. 3 if you 'play it safe', and 4 if you're really fucking paranoid about resting up and regaining healing surges and daily powers.

So yeah. You walk out the door at the end of spring as a callow youth and retire as an actual, functional demigod at the beginning of autumn.

The actual campaign could really be wrapped up in barely two or three times that in real time if you want to slog through it as soon as possible (so that perhaps you can play a game thats actually fun).

[JonSetanta]

So yeah. You walk out the door at the end of spring as a callow youth and retire as an actual, functional demigod at the beginning of autumn.

But you risk your immortal soul in some of those high-up encounters.
That's a rapid pace ideally but your DM will probably throw in RP time, Monty Python joke tyrades, or Star Wars debates enough to slow you down.

Still, I'd choose the adventurer lifestyle over this one if you could call this a life.

Wouldn't college take less time than reaching level 30 though?

Sure didn't feel like it.
The risk of death would be greater for an adventurer but at least they wouldn't develop a stomach ulcer from stress of failure, and even if you die at Level 29 or whatever you still got something worthwhile out of it.

Choosing courses and a major in college might be compared to picking the right class, but you can't retrain years of credits into something else. Picking the wrong one, such as English major or a full-classed Fighter, and you're going to feel the hurt later.
You'll need to spend more time and more money to fix mistakes because you made the wrong choices.

And yet with the game even if you don't hit RPG Endgame Status, Bards sing of your adventurer deeds and how badass you looked when the evil dragon exploded into tiny meatbits.
For the most part a large portion of people you meet in college just forget you, or go back home far, far away. Or both.

[Psychic Robot]

If you die at level 29, you can just self-rez.

[RandomCasualty2]

I honestly never understood the "you level so fast" argument that you guys make. I mean, yeah you'd level fast if you spend every day of your life adventuring and fighting battles. But that's just not the case. Unless you're some kind of sociopath who kills everything he encounters, you're going to spend a lot of time waiting to find an adventure.

[ckafrica]

Well we did manage a 3-20 campaign in under a year of sunday afternoos for 3.5 but I'm not so sure how kosher the DM's XP calculations

[Koumei]

Unless you're some kind of sociopath who kills everything he encounters,

I think you just summed up the mindset of your average adventurer.

[Draco_Argentum]

Did 4e remove even 3.x's weak rules for non combat xp?

[Kaelik]

I honestly never understood the "you level so fast" argument that you guys make. I mean, yeah you'd level fast if you spend every day of your life adventuring and fighting battles. But that's just not the case. Unless you're some kind of sociopath who kills everything he encounters, you're going to spend a lot of time waiting to find an adventure.

Well since the DMG gives a daily quota, it is assumed that you take that quota each day.

[Voss]

Even if you want to assume a couple months of traveling, you're only adding a season or two. It really doesn't matter. And yes, by modern standards, a lot of shrinks would classify adventurers as sociopaths. Going out and killing people is their entire schtick, in fact, in the course of those 240-300 encounters your group of 4 or 5 people will kill over a thousand creatures, most of them sentient.

But you're missing the point. Its not that you need to spend every day of your life slaughtering people. Its the mathematical fact that you can do all the killing you need to do in 3 months. At 18, an adventurer could seriously expect to set out, become a demigod, and seriously father/bear a child before they're 19, retired and set up a semi-divine dynasty.
And the pregnancy will take up 75% of that time!

Its even more egregious than the stuff Frank talks about in the Tome books. If you know someone is going to attack you at the end of spring, you can seriously train up a couple hit squads of fucking demigods that can deal with whatever the problem is. You don't even have to pay them anything, because they're guaranteed to get all the loot and magic items they'll need during the training.

This system wanders beyond stupid into absolute idiocy.

[MartinHarper]

So, as a completely new DM, I wonder how much the cool toys are held back to make my life easier. Maybe there should be guidance:

* Never played D&D? Start at level 1.
* Played D&D before? Start at level 10.
* Played RPGs for years? Start at level 20.

Did 4e remove even 3.x's weak rules for non combat xp?

It's got quest xp and skill challenge xp. Instead, I guess.

[K]

Most wars last years, so it should be easy enough to get enough encounters to become a demigod.

[Draco_Argentum]

Quest and skill challenge xp, you don't have to execute your way to level 30, RC.

[mikal768]

The more I look at the Demigod, the more I like it. The crowning level 30 ability, that to never run out of encounter powers, is as sweet and flavorful as anything you're ever going to get in 4th Edition D&D.

Ultimately, though, that's just retarded. You know what's stupider than frontloading classes? Backloading them. At least when you frontload a class, you get all of the cool toys now. There's no guarantee that your campaign will ever get to level 30. So in the meantime you're enduring months or even years of suckage for a payoff that will probably never happen.

What the heck? I know Andy Collins got small in the pants when he realized that a single-classed barbarian was always inferior to a fighter/rogue/barbarian/whatever the fuck, but the problem wasn't the goddamn fighter/rogue/barbarian/whatever the fuck, the problem was his damn barbarian he loved so much!

It's just stupid. I don't want to slog through months of a game before my character does something interesting. Who designed this crap, anyway?

Perhaps the design thoughts for this game wasn't the thought of backloading, frontloading, or powers in general, but rather just to create a balanced system among the classes itself? After all, the game doesn't have to be as narrow minded as this whole 'real ultimate power' I've been seeing crop up more and more on these forums...

[mikal768]

Most wars last years, so it should be easy enough to get enough encounters to become a demigod.

From an OOC standpoint yes, but from an IC... no. After all, you could literally somehow be able to survive hundreds of encounters in a lifetime, and yet never fufill that destiny.... because it's an actual fated destiny for the person who achieves it. The same reason you can have the offensive power to nearly kill a demigod, yet still fall in one blow: Because you may be powerful, but the fates or whatever have decided you aren't important in the end?

Reeking of metagame influence? Perhaps. Fitting? I think so.