The Gaming Den

It seems clear that WotC intended 4E to play more like an MMO, with power progressions, defined roles, and monster battles that act like an MMO. Why they thought it was a good idea to create a PnP game simulating a computer game simulating a PnP game is anybody's guess, but there you go.

They failed.

Classes

Look at the two signature D&D classes, the Fighter and the Wizard. They are supposed to translated into a MMO Tank and Controller, respectively. In a MMO, a Tank's role is to prevent mobs from attacking the rest of the group, and suck up damage. Can a Fighter do that? Not really. It can muck up movement a little bit, do a little knockback, impose a minor debuff, and damage a foe that ignores it, but if Orcus really wants to put the smackdown on the party's Cleric, Orcus generally can. So the Fighter does OK, but any decent MMO would send it back to code and playtest.

What about the Wizard? First, it's not a Controller in the MMO sense. It's an AoE Blaster that doesn't do much damage. Second, it's by far the best single-target controller w/ Orb mastery b/c of the clunky save system, but almost any class can get similar effects w/ good power choices. A Warlock, for instance, can almost always cause action loss. Finally, the Wizard almost demands that the encounters be minion-heavy for those AoE's to be worth using. That's kind of heavy-handed, eh? But let's say you do that. There's lots of AoE attacks scattered among the other classes that can take care of minions. Sooooo again, it's hard to see what's so special about the Controller role of the Wizard.

So what about the class system requires all the pigeonholing and massive choice-limiting that 4E gives us?

Power Differentiation

Here's a question. You're writing out the power spreadsheet for your MMO, and you get to mezzes. Hmmm. What should the duration be? You brainstorm w/ the development team, and then, finally you get it! No matter what power you use, what class you play, or what you attack, all mezzzes last . . . 5 seconds.

I doubt that even gets coded.

Other things being equal, any decent MMO would have a mez by a controller last longer than a similar mez by a damage dealer. Similarly, a mez against a Boss wouldn't last nearly as long as a mez against a mook. And for the luv of all that's holy! A Slow should last longer than a Stun! One robs you of 2 squares of movement, another Stops! All! Action!

That's a huge reason 4E seems so flavorless. How different would it be if the Wizard stopped Minions cold, but a Dragon shrugged off his Immobs in seconds? Or if a Fighter's Stun knocked a Giant out for a while, but a Ranger's lasted a turn and that's it?

And Feats could change things. And. . .

But then, that's what a MMO would do, not 4E.

Same goes for everything. Why does a Wizard's Knockback have to be the same as Fighter's? Why does a Fighter get the same armor benefits as a Warlord?

In a MMO, those are called Opportunities for Coolness. in 4E, those are called Complications.

Crafting

Every MMO has crafting. Does 4E? No.

I could go on, but it's dinner time.

Tydanosaurus wrote:
What about the Wizard? First, it's not a Controller in the MMO sense. It's an AoE Blaster that doesn't do much damage. Second, it's by far the best single-target controller w/ Orb mastery b/c of the clunky save system, but almost any class can get similar effects w/ good power choices. A Warlock, for instance, can almost always cause action loss. Finally, the Wizard almost demands that the encounters be minion-heavy for those AoE's to be worth using. That's kind of heavy-handed, eh? But let's say you do that. There's lots of AoE attacks scattered among the other classes that can take care of minions. Sooooo again, it's hard to see what's so special about the Controller role of the Wizard.

Replace 'Wizard' with 'Mage' and that's World of Warcraft almost exactly, right down to needing specially designed minion heavy encounters just so the AoE Mage will feel important.

Warlocks are the ones who shine in AoE fights in WoW, since Seed of Corruption is amazingly powerful.

Can I just ask what the fuck a mez is? You keep referencing mezzes.

A mez, short for 'mesmerize' is something that makes the victim unable to act in any capacity. In MMOs, they tend to be dispelled after any amount of damage. In WoW, maybe others, the caster inflicting the mez also loses his actions maintaining the mez; which allows allies to reorganize and prepare.

virgileso wrote: In WoW, maybe others, the caster inflicting the mez also loses his actions maintaining the mez; which allows allies to reorganize and prepare.

There's only one effect that sort of causes the caster to lose their actions, the priest's mind control spell, and it actually just puts you in control of your target instead of your character. The rest you just cast 'em (maybe stick a focus macro on the marked mob so you can resheep/charm/root without dropping targets) then switch to nuking your main target or whatever.

I'd consider the succubus's charm ability to be a mez, which requires concentration to work.

Though the difference between a mez and a stun in WoW has always gotten me confused, if you solely go off of the "victim cannot act" requirement.

I believe the traditional difference between a stun and a mez is that both of them prevent the target from attacking, but a mez also prevents anyone from attacking the target (either strongly, by making them invulnerable, or weakly, by having the effect end if anyone attacks the target).

Tactically, this means that you can stun anyone, but you can't (usefully) mez your primary target while attacking. Which usually means that a mez is basically as good as a stun as long as you're fighting more enemies than you can stun at one time and you don't accidentally "break" the mez early. Even in a 1v1 duel, if you can use the time that your opponent is mezzed to heal, buff, or gain a positional advantage, it's still often almost as good as a real stun. I think the distinction is mostly used to penalize groups of players for having poor coordination (and therefore "breaking" the mez early).

"Weak" mesmerizes are very common in WoW. The ones I remember off the top of my head that break on damage are:

Polymorph (50 seconds, reapplicable, heals target to full)
Gouge (4 seconds, 10 second cooldown, reapplicable)
Sap (50 seconds, not reapplicable)
Seduce (15 seconds, reapplicable, requires the succubus to concentrate)
Fear (30 seconds, reapplicable, breaks on a random amount of damage and makes your target run around)
Maim (6 seconds with 5 combo points, reapplicable eventually)
Freezing Trap (30 seconds or so, reapplicable)
Psychic Scream (8 seconds, AoE fear, breaks on random amount of damage)
Intimidating Shout (10 seconds, AoE fear)
Mind Control (30 seconds, switches control of character for control of target)

All of those except the Fear ones break on any damage to the target, and last a maximum of 10 seconds in PvP (with diminishing returns such that the second application lasts 5, the third 2.5, and further ones are immune.) Some of them also have targeting restrictions. The only spells that actually make you invulnerable when used are Banish and Cyclone, which last 45 and 6 seconds, respectively. Banish is usable only on demons and elementals, and Cyclone has diminishing returns in PvE as well.

I've played WoW, though no other MMO. Having mobs run up and put the smackdown on the healer is entirely part of that game, both PvP and PvE. The game is not designed to have every monster hitting the tank all the time, because that would be dull.

The comparison on stun-length is a little odd. I don't think it's particularly logical to look at in game time when considering these things. If an effect lasts for a year, I don't care if I'm playing Civilisation, and each turn represents 100 years.

It would be nice to have some 4e "mezes" that break when the target takes damage, or have a chance of breaking, though the fun of accidentally breaking sheep wouldn't be present as much. They do have a few "banish" and "mind control" equivalents. There should be more variety, though.

Tydanosaurus wrote:How different would it be if the Wizard stopped Minions cold, but a Dragon shrugged off his Immobs in seconds?

Like how solos and elites have bonuses to saving throws, and minions just die anyway?

Tydanosaurus wrote:Or if a Fighter's Stun knocked a Giant out for a while, but a Ranger's lasted a turn and that's it?

Like how some effects last a turn, some last until saved against, some last until the end of the encounter?

Tydanosaurus wrote:Why does a Fighter get the same armor benefits as a Warlord?

Like how a fighter is proficient with scale and a warlord isn't?

Tydanosaurus wrote:Why does a Wizard's Knockback have to be the same as Fighter's?

The first forced movement spell I can find in the wizard's power list is Bigby's Icy Grasp at level 5, which is pretty different to Tide of Iron at level 1 from the fighter list.
Meanwhile, WoW does not use exception-based design (thankfully) which is why all "stuns" behave the same way, all "fears" behave the same way, and so forth.

You should look through the list more carefully. Wizards have Thundercloud/wave at 1st level, a Close Blast that pushes targets +Wis. It's generally better than Tide of Iron, except there isn't a follow-up.

World of Warcraft is a good MMO.

D&D 4E is a bad MMO.

D&D is a good table-top game.

World of Warcraft is a not too shabby table-top game:

http://www.white-wolf.com/warcraftrpg/

mlangsdorf wrote:You should look through the list more carefully. Wizards have Thundercloud/wave at 1st level, a Close Blast that pushes targets +Wis. It's generally better than Tide of Iron, except there isn't a follow-up.

Ahh, thanks.
It still looks different enough to Tide of Iron to me, but they're more comparable.