The Gaming Den

I admit, I am neither a rules-lawyer or a power-gamer; I have played D&D for several years, but have never gained extremely insightful analysis into the workings of the rules.

So this is where you come in.

I am going to run a Tome game, straight out of the box. I want to see Frank and K's work through first-hand experience and see if it holds up.

What should I be aware of? Any poorly worded rules or broken spells that I should look out for? How about skills and feats? What PHB classes are fine to use in a Tome game without modification?

Also, what of the Craft/Perform/Profession skills?

Oh, and why do Warriors (Tome Warriors) have good Will Saves? What's the incentive?

And what is up with the Necromancy/Fiend emphasis? What about other popular D&D monsters/iconics? What about a Dragon class and [Dragon] feats?

Also, why do Half-orcs gain a flat +2 strength and a bonus on Gather Information? What was the design incentive?

Also, when making NPCs, I realized that it was a lot faster to make Tome NPCs using the Tome Classes than the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard. Any tips on making a full caster NPC without having to jot down a few dozen spells and having to memorize all their effects?

Other than the Tomes, I will use the 3 Core Rulebooks. If the first few games work fine, then I will use The Wurst of Grimtooth's Traps, and The Tome of Horrors I-III by Necromancer Games.

The Tomes of Horrors are books full of monster stats. If anybody happens to own them, please tell me if overall, they would hold up.

URL: http://www.necromancergames.com/

What PHB classes are fine to use in a Tome game without modification?

Wizard, Cleric and Druid are the primary ones, although even then, they still have certain things that can be abused (any shape-changing abilities). Sorcerers can hold their end up, but are a bit lacking. Their best bet is actually to take the abusive spells, because they offer so much flexibility.

Also, what of the Craft/Perform/Profession skills?

What of them? Professions are now taken like languages, with set wages. The others work as normal, IIRC.

And what is up with the Necromancy/Fiend emphasis? What about other popular D&D monsters/iconics? What about a Dragon class and [Dragon] feats?

I may be wrong here, but I believe their first production was the Necromancer's Handbook, which explains how things work as they are, and how to make do with what exists.

After that, they made the Tome of Necromancy, to provide a better alternative. Then, either through popular demand or "We're sort of on the same theme here. And we can cover alignment questions, too." they made the Tome of Fiends. Once that happened, they branched out into everything else.

Dragons were going to be covered in Book of Tiamat. In general, people are sick of dragons though, or at least, sick of dragon fanboyism.

Also, why do Half-orcs gain a flat +2 strength and a bonus on Gather Information? What was the design incentive?

"Why not?"

How general/specific are Craft skills?

Angry_Pessimist wrote:How general/specific are Craft skills?

In the Tome game I'm running, after some advice and consultation, I ended up running Craft to be like Frank's version of Perform, or the default Speak Language--every rank, you pick up competency in a new form of the skill--blacksmithing, jewelry-making, leatherworking, basketweaving, etc.

Oh, and the design justification for the Half-Orc is they're almost as strong as orcs while being as smart as humans. They'd be running things if they didn't have so much prejudice against them from both sides. But, paradoxically, because they've grown up with prejudice against them, most half-orcs have learned how to work around it. I'm pretty sure it even says that, right under the stats.

Angry_Pessimist wrote: What should I be aware of? Any poorly worded rules or broken spells that I should look out for? How about skills and feats? What PHB classes are fine to use in a Tome game without modification?

The full casters plus the rogue work fine.

Angry_Pessimist wrote:Also, what of the Craft/Perform/Profession skills?

They work fine as written in the Tomes. Just remember that (1) there's only one Craft skill, (2) Perform works like in 3.0e, and (3) Profession skills never go higher than 2 ranks.

Angry_Pessimist wrote:Also, when making NPCs, I realized that it was a lot faster to make Tome NPCs using the Tome Classes than the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard. Any tips on making a full caster NPC without having to jot down a few dozen spells and having to memorize all their effects?

Try using some of the NPC and beginner-level magic-user classes: Adept, Fire Mage, "NPC wizard", Puppeteer, etc.


If you haven't already, get the Tome PDF!

I have the Tome PDF. I printed it out.

Do you know how much ink that cost?

And why haven't these rules been made into a third party book? That would save a lot of money on printer ink.

Angry_Pessimist wrote:I have the Tome PDF. I printed it out.

Do you know how much ink that cost?

And why haven't these rules been made into a third party book? That would save a lot of money on printer ink.

Ow. If you do need to print stuff like this out you should probably put two pages to a side and use both sides of the paper. that at least saves paper.

if you have to worry about ink. just get the important stuff rather than all the fluff. it might take a little extra work but that's a fvckin huge document.

A_Cynic wrote:Ow. If you do need to print stuff like this out you should probably put two pages to a side and use both sides of the paper. that at least saves paper.

if you have to worry about ink. just get the important stuff rather than all the fluff. it might take a little extra work but that's a fvckin huge document.

I wasn't thinking at the time.

Maxus wrote:Oh, and the design justification for the Half-Orc is they're almost as strong as orcs while being as smart as humans. They'd be running things if they didn't have so much prejudice against them from both sides. But, paradoxically, because they've grown up with prejudice against them, most half-orcs have learned how to work around it. I'm pretty sure it even says that, right under the stats.

How does being a victim of prejudice make you good at collecting gossip and rumors?

A_P wrote:
How does being a victim of prejudice make you good at collecting gossip and rumors?

It makes you a survivor. Gather info isn't just for gossip and rumors. It's a tool of urban (mostly) survival which you can use to get information. And when you need to survive, you need to be able to get information which is what the skill -- see the name, pay attention -- Gather Information is for.

Another way to view it is that people of the lower income class, the street trash, tend to be represented by the oppressed (such as a half-orc). Those archetypes are actually great at getting information, because they know all of the seedy parts of town. Most interpretations of Gather Information utilize the "underside" of a community, from what I've seen. Knowing about gossip and rumours is generally relegated to Knowledge (local).

Not to say that Gather Info is limited solely to knowing which bar brawl to get into, but it's a common trope.

Main thing you need to be aware of is that the Tome series was written for hardcore powergaming. That means that if your PCs are the sort who cast fireballs all the time, the tome series is not for them, and in fact, the Tome series will likely totally unbalance your game, because the wizards will feel really awful.

If on the other hand you've got wizard who routinely use battlefield control and other tactical combos, the tomes should improve your game somewhat. The main real drawback to the Tomes is that it leads to a very rocket launcher tag game, where you're going to have a lot of swings. Anything powerful enough to challenge the party generally needs to be able to TPK them in 2 rounds. And that's very deadly.

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Main thing you need to be aware of is that the Tome series was written for hardcore powergaming. That means that if your PCs are the sort who cast fireballs all the time, the tome series is not for them, and in fact, the Tome series will likely totally unbalance your game, because the wizards will feel really awful.

Needed clarification: direct damage would be fine once Tome of Tiamat came out; it's an unfinished work, not an insult to bad stuff in official material (if it was, they'd say "the monk doesn't exist, play a druid - you'll be better at unarmed combat, scouting, and spell defense").