so much about "economy of actions"

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
josephbt
Knight
Posts: 325
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Zagreb, Cro

so much about "economy of actions"

Post by josephbt »

Bag of Tricks

These small leather bags come in a variety of colors, gray being the most common. You can use a bag of tricks to conjure an obedient beast. You must spend a healing surge to activate the bag’s power, and you gain no other benefit for spending the healing surge.

When you use a bag of tricks to conjure a creature, it appears in an unoccupied space within 5 squares of you; the space must be large enough to contain the creature without squeezing. The creature obeys only you, responding to commands spoken in any language. The creature remains until the end of the encounter or for 5 minutes. The conjured creature acts on the same initiative count as you. Every action it takes costs you a minor action (which you use to issue commands), and a conjured creature cannot exceed its normal allotment of actions (a standard, a move, and a minor action) during its turn. If you spend no minor actions on your turn to command the creature, it remains where it is without taking any actions on its turn.

A conjured creature is a minion (MM 282). It has no healing surges and cannot be healed, and it cannot gain temporary hit points. When reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, the conjured creature disappears. If an object is placed in the bag of tricks, the bag ceases to function until the object is removed. A bag of tricks used for simple storage holds up to 3 pounds.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20080807a

So, basically, they were full of shite.
engi

Blood for the Blood God!
User avatar
Cynic
Prince
Posts: 2776
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Cynic »

But! But! But! YOU, YOU, YOU, The PC, lose your minor action compared to it, the MINION , pfft, gaining a standard, move, minor. That's totally more important.
Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.
User avatar
Orion
Prince
Posts: 3756
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Orion »

EVERY action, dears.

So yeah, if you want the minion to get a full turn, it replaces your character.
User avatar
Cynic
Prince
Posts: 2776
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Cynic »

I didn't read that part.

I'm not too familiar with the 4e action system. Is it similar to the 3e breakdown.

As in one major is two move. 1 move is two minor? or is there even a breakdown?
Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.
User avatar
bosssmiley
Apprentice
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:56 pm

Post by bosssmiley »

The fail is palpable.

Daily Power Standard Action
Grunt and flex (aka: spend a healing surge) to squeeze a little furry animal out of your pouch. You can then marionette this creature around the board^H^H^H^H^H battlefield attracting derision and hilarity in your wake until someone take it upon themself to put the poor thing out of its misery.

4E bag of tricks = bag of puppets

Although...
Cat: 4 damage + knock prone. Do you think they intentionally keep the killer housecat in as an easter egg?
The rules serve the game, not vice versa.
User avatar
virgil
King
Posts: 6339
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by virgil »

The gist of it is that you can use a minor action to get a standard action, which breaks the economy of actions. Of course, you are losing a healing surge and the thing will die to strong language, but the economy of actions has already started with it inflation.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
User avatar
Orion
Prince
Posts: 3756
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Orion »

but it doesn't *increase* your number of actions. Nor does it actually upgrade a minor to a standard. It allows you to spend a minor action to do special "minion standard actions" that, thanks to EBD, have nothing to do with actual standard actions that you as a character could take.

Really, it lets you spend a minor action to attack for 4 damage, which is totally in line with what minor actions can already do. As long as they continue to balance minion actions to that standard, it doesn't seem to be an issue.

Besides, its a daily power. They're apparently allowed to break action economy in half. See: Helm of... Heroes, I think? for a magic item example. Or any Warlord power. Any of them.
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Post by JonSetanta »

A_Cynic wrote:But! But! But! YOU, YOU, YOU, The PC, lose your minor action compared to it, the MINION , pfft, gaining a standard, move, minor. That's totally more important.
Comedy gold.
Quoted.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
User avatar
Absentminded_Wizard
Duke
Posts: 1122
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

So how long before somebody on the WotC boards decries this as totally broken despite the weakness of your minion's powers?
Roy
Prince
Posts: 2772
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:53 pm

Post by Roy »

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:So how long before somebody on the WotC boards decries this as totally broken despite the weakness of your minion's powers?
Five seconds. Ten, if you'll only count it as long as the complainer points to something far worse and claims it to be better, or vice versa. Kinda like all those people who freak out about Spiked Chain Fighters, but think a 1-20 save or lose God wizard is perfectly acceptable.
User avatar
Psychic Robot
Prince
Posts: 4607
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 10:47 pm

Post by Psychic Robot »

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1071908

Somebody said it should take a move action.

EDIT: Also, minor lulz about how EVERYTHING IN 4E HAS TO DO WITH COMBAT.
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
User avatar
Judging__Eagle
Prince
Posts: 4671
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

Post by Judging__Eagle »

BEACUAZ THAT"S ALL ANYONE CAREZ ABOAT!
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.

While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
Roy
Prince
Posts: 2772
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:53 pm

Post by Roy »

Judging__Eagle wrote:BEACUAZ THAT"S ALL ANYONE CAREZ ABOAT!
Oh noes! :mrgreen:
RandomCasualty2
Prince
Posts: 3295
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:22 pm

Post by RandomCasualty2 »

The funniest thing about the bag of tricks is the cat, which apparently knocks any creature prone on a hit. So apparently your cat can take down ogres rather easily.
User avatar
Cynic
Prince
Posts: 2776
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Cynic »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:The funniest thing about the bag of tricks is the cat, which apparently knocks any creature prone on a hit. So apparently your cat can take down ogres rather easily.

One would say that's a tricky cat even. Yeah, that's a bad one. I'll go shoot myself in the kneecaps now.
Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.
PhoneLobster
King
Posts: 6403
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by PhoneLobster »

So apparently your cat can take down ogres rather easily.
Kind of appropriate actually. Does the cat wear some kick ass boots?
User avatar
Cynic
Prince
Posts: 2776
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Cynic »

PhoneLobster wrote:
So apparently your cat can take down ogres rather easily.
Kind of appropriate actually. Does the cat wear some kick ass boots?
Man, too many bad puns from this one.

Look what you did! You let the cat out of the bag.
Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.
User avatar
Talisman
Duke
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: The Cliffs of Insanity!

Post by Talisman »

You people stop being so catty.

[ducks]
MartinHarper wrote:Babies are difficult to acquire in comparison to other sources of nutrition.
User avatar
Cynic
Prince
Posts: 2776
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Cynic »

We're chatty cathies, aren't we?
~

That's going a little too far from it.
Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Post by JonSetanta »

Stop pussyfootin' around,

Or rather, pussybootsfootin'?
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
User avatar
virgil
King
Posts: 6339
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by virgil »

It makes me wish I could come up with the purr-fect pun for this.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
Post Reply