Being Evil

[Aktariel]

Let's face it. Being evil in DnD is hard, unless you're so evil that you go around stabbing the children of angels in the face for fun or something.

Because really, when people say "I want to play an evil character," what they usually mean is, "I want to play a badass anti-hero who can stab orc babies without moral qualms like that namby-pamby paladin, because sometimes shit just needs to get done."

In other words, you want to play someone with an "evil" alignment, or you saw a class feature that you really liked but had to be evil to get, or you just want to pretend to be badass and break the law and get away with it, because you can seriously stab the police in the face. But you still want to run the adventure the DM had in mind, just with... evil characters. They stab people in the face just as well as other blokes. (Or do they?)

But as I've said, being evil in DnD is hard. The designers apparently expected you to be good, and so all of the evil prestige classes (BoVD, here's looking at you), are designed for villains, with once a day powers that are pretty good or crazy powerful depending. There's very little that's usable as a prestige class for a PC. Even, I hate to say it, Frank has fallen victim to this a little (Demon Samurai), though nowhere near as bad as other designers.

But you can't use that BoVD shit in the game. And even if I were to flip the paladin around, what do I get? Smite Good. If I'm fighting orcs, that's useless to me. Really. For optimization purposes, I'm better off playing a goody two shoes, unless I know that the DM has specifically written in a bunch of good characters for me to stab.

However, people still, I think, would rather stab orcs than angels. At the end of the day, when the game is over, it's easier to ignore the fact that you just stabbed people in the face, if they "had it coming."

The idea here is sort of like the Pitch Black tagline: Fight evil with evil. You'd think, being evil, they'd be in some sort of club and know all of each others weaknesses. So maybe, the anti-paladin keeps smite good. Or just gets "Smite: Someone I Don't Like."


So. With all of the incoherent ranting behind me, I'd like to ask people for ideas about optimizing "anti-heroes." Builds, races, classes, ideas, angry responses...

Anything.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Well, first off, you don't need to have the word "evil" stamped on a PrC or ability in order to use it with an anti-hero. By that standard, almost everything in the game can be used by anti-heroes. You need to narrow your definition of what you want optimized. Otherwise you are basically asking "How do I optimize in Dnd?"

[Koumei]

The BoVD had one good PrCl: the Soul Eater. Hooray for negative levels!

Unless, of course, it is ruled that "It is listed as a (Su) ability. Unless specified otherwise, a (Su) is a standard action to use. You have to spend a standard action to make a touch attack to bestow a negative level." as opposed to "I make a full attack. With all of my limbs. And my hands are holding those undead channelling swords. Take... a billion negative levels."

But that's about all that springs to mind.

At level 3 or higher, the Conduit of the Lower Planes works just fine for a player. At any level the True Fiend or Fiendish Brute do. And there's always the Cleric.

Note that Evil Druids are extremely rare, and get almost no support. This is because, despite nature being mindless and thus Neutral, liking nature and utilising it is secretly [Good], so it's difficult to be both evil and a tree-hugging hippy who hates iron, humans and progress.

[rapa-nui]

Anyone here played Mass Effect? There was no good or evil in that game. Your character could gain points in Paragon (goodie two-shoes) or Renegade (a selfish prick) and the best part was that neither track canceled the other out (except in terms of opportunity cost). The end result is that your could roleplay (GASP) a highly nuanced character without feeling like you were on some sort of morality yo-yo.

In the end though, the character is driven by the pragmatic need to survive and complete his mission, which effectively turns him into the Protagonist without pigeonholing him into one side of the Judeo-Christian moral dichotomy.

Traditional fantasy is driven by both Romantic notions of righteousness by birthright and Christian redemption which makes being an evil PROTAGONIST impossible if it is the basis for the rules (as it is in D&D... but badly and mixed up with other random shit).

[Amra]

As has been so well detailed by Frank and K, you can't even start to come up with an anti-hero concept until you've got agreement around the gaming table as to how Evil is going to be handled.

My preferred anti-hero concept within D&D is the Batman-like character who has only one or two things they won't do in the cause of what they consider to be right. Of course, you can't have the "will not kill" stipulation because that's a fast-track to getting turned into a statue and pushed into the nearest river by the rest of the party... but you can still have limits. Stick to them, and play up everything that you *will* do.

Trouble is, that won't work at all if the DM is running the sort of campaign where 'being evil' means 'being Evil', because Paladins and Good-aligned priests will knifecrime you in the head on general principles. A decent antihero concept also very much relies on circumstances; you have to have the setting in which to act that way, and if the DM doesn't supply it you're just another player character with a bad temper and a penchant for describing the violence with a little more realism than your contemporaries consider to be strictly necessary.

Unfortunately, antiheroes mostly Just Don't Work in a party setting unless they're handled very carefully and everyone's on board with the idea. There's a reason that most antihero characters are loners; if they're surrounded by a bunch of similarly-superpowered lead characters who are uncomfortable with their methods, there's no reason for the other guys not to stop them doing it. You can't have your character consistently doing things on-camera that the rest of the party won't countenance because everyone in a D&D party is the hero.

If you're in a party where *all* of the characters are up for that sort of thing, you get the opposite problem. Merely in order to stand out as an antihero, every character has to resort to more and more callous and brutal tactics in a descending spiral of "things we're prepared to do to get the job done". Someone is going to get uncomfortable with that and the game just gets unpleasant.

It can work, but really the ideal situation is one in which you've got one character who's prepared to do evil For Great Justice, whilst the others don't have an extreme moral position and are thus prepared to let you get away with it.

You don't actually, as such, need any special PrC's or abilities in order to be evil, only to be Evil. Most classes in the game are already perfectly suited to doing evil things because, let's face it, most every class is designed to murder things and pinch their stuff. Being capital-'E'-Evil, on the other hand, is a system mechanic rather than a code of behaviour and it is - you're absolutely correct - very problematic because it isn't actually useful to help you fight Evil enemies. If you want that situation to change, you've pretty much got to change the underlying mechanic; or better yet throw it out of the window altogether.

[Cynic]

I think it is interesting that evil is inherently being defined as being the killer of angel-spawn?

I know that's just a way to "sanctify" it but isn't that just making the argument in itself farcical?

[Aktariel]

Well, there's morality, and then there's morality in DnD.

In the real world, things like killing children and raping women and stabbing men in the face are bad.

In Dnd, that's generally true, except when an entire race is evil.
Inherently. Evil. No "redemption" possible. So killing them is a good act, because you're decreasing the amount of evil in the world.

The flipside of the is that some races are inherently good. They smell like cookies and flowers grow out of their footprints, and everything they do is good. Or something. So killing them is decreasing the amount of good in the world, which is generally considered a pretty bad/evil thing to do.

Th real problem, I think, lies in this wishy-washy moral crossover crap that we've got going on, where people try to justify stabbing other people as a good action, because the other side is Evil.

Kind of like the Crusades.

That being said, I suppose there are two ways to go, just like in the real world. Absolutism and relativism.

There are good things, and there are bad things, and if you do A then you are good, or if you do B then you are bad. You can't be good and do B, or you'll turn evil. (Granted, this is a gross oversimplification for the sake of argument, but it's still applicable). In this model, things like angels are made of the essence of good, and demons are made of pure evil.

Then there's relativism, where you can have liches who occasionally kill devils, and angels who occasionally kill children. Who may or may not be a member of an inherently evil race. Again, a simplification, but again for the sake of argument.

Really, the Tomes cover alignment options pretty well.

I guess in this case, I'm really... not exactly wasting my time, but as the point was made, evil and/or antiheroic characters are generally solo adventurer types.

Really, this all came up because I was like, "I want to make an anti-paladin, who will fit into standard adventures, and kills other evil creatures, and under the "just flip it" method (smite good -> evil, detect evil ->good, etc), that doesn't really work.

So I wondered what other people's thoughts on the matter might be.

The Gaming Den: Ask for optimization, get a morality discussion.

[Psychic Robot]

Vigilante 10! He gets 33 spells per day omg omg omg.

[ubernoob]

The Gaming Den: Ask for optimization, get a morality discussion.

Isn't that a good thing? It is more interesting. I read probably 80% of the new threads in the Den. In forums devoted to Min/Max (BG and Gleemax pretty much) I read maybe 10% of new threads.

Now, get back to your regularly scheduled morality discussion.

[Judging__Eagle]

Vigilante 10! He gets 33 spells per day omg omg omg.

Old joke. Besides, a millions spells per day means nothing if they're not spells made of win.

I've seen a lvl 5 Wizard make Tome characters look bad, with Deep Slumber and Web.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Note that Evil Druids are extremely rare, and get almost no support. This is because, despite nature being mindless and thus Neutral, liking nature and utilising it is secretly [Good], so it's difficult to be both evil and a tree-hugging hippy who hates iron, humans and progress.

There was an amazingly cool evil druid PrC in Masters of the Wild, which focused around sacrificing people at Stonehenge (and possibly burning people in wicker persons). Unfortunately, it was pretty weak, but there aren't many druid builds that aren't druid 20 anyway.

[Amra]

I guess in this case, I'm really... not exactly wasting my time, but as the point was made, evil and/or antiheroic characters are generally solo adventurer types.

Really, this all came up because I was like, "I want to make an anti-paladin, who will fit into standard adventures, and kills other evil creatures, and under the "just flip it" method (smite good -> evil, detect evil ->good, etc), that doesn't really work.

OK, OK, fair enough. It's a reasonable goal. If you're going to make this class campaign-agnostic, you're going to have to come up with a character who is evil (or Evil, according to your lights) but who for some reason mostly doesn't do Evil things.

Except, of course, to Evil creatures.

You're still going to be shafted by area effects that target Evil or nongood alignments, but we can live with that I suppose. Are you after something that's modelled on the Paladin as a base concept, or would you prefer a class that isn't shit? Erm... Sorry, I mean a class that doesn't have a piddling handful of divine spells and the ability to cure disease a few times per week as a substitute for actual class features.

I'll stick a few random ideas down and you can say whether or not they're what you're looking for. Part of the aim here is to get some of the "evil" stuff in, but in such a way that players don't have to act out the most grisly aspects of what such a character might do.

I've taken you at your word that an anti-Paladin concept is what you're after. I haven't finished it off - it's not worth it until I know whether it's the sort of thing you're after - and much of it could be written up more clearly, but you should get the idea of what I was aiming for. I don't want to spend much effort tidying up if it's a bust from the outset

****************

Vengeant Knight

"I'll do it. You don't have to watch."

'Evil begets evil', so the priests say. And they're right. They also say that evil contains the seeds of its own destruction... and they're right about that, too.

The Vengeant Knight is a child of evil, bound to the darkness yet sworn to its defeat. He may have been born - as some creatures are - with a canker in his heart, or he may have begun as an innocent who was exposed to such horrors that his soul became blackened and twisted. To his enemies, the nature of his genesis makes little difference; not that they will have long to ponder the question.

The Vengeant Knight takes the bitterness, cruelty, and hatred from the deepest recesses of his benighted soul and embraces them. He doesn't fight for redemption, nor for glory, but for revenge against the entire world and the vicious satisfaction to be derived from crushing those whose vileness mirrors his own. He does not balk at harming the innocent in the pursuit of his foes if it is needful, yet wherever possible he stays his hand against the undeserving; only the slaying of Evil creatures grants him the dark joy that for a time slakes his burning thirst for destruction.

Alignment: A Vengeant Knight may be of any Evil alignment.

Races: Suffering is experienced by all sentient creatures, and even the best-intentioned race can produce the occasional monster; Vengeant Knights born of the pain of Good-aligned races are often the most fearsome of all.

Starting Gold: 6d4x20 gp (300 gold)

Hit Die: d12

Class Skills: The Vengeant Knight's skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Use Rope (Dex).

Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus

BAB: Full

Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Poor; Will: Good

Level: Benefits

1. Aura of Evil, Embrace the Darkness, Inexorable Evil, Sense Kinship, Smite 1/day
2. Original Sin, Strength of Corruption
3. 'Been There, Done That', The Abyss Gazes Also
4. The Quality of Mercy
5. Battle Not With Monsters, Smite 2/day
6. Nowhere to Hide
7. The Enemy Within 1/day
8
9. You're Next
10 Smite 3/day
11 The Enemy Within 2/day
12 My Evil Twin
13
14
15 Smite 4/day, The Enemy Within 3/day
16
17
18
19 The Enemy Within 4/day
20 Smite 5/day

Below are described the class features of the Vengeant Knight class:

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Vengeant Knights are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armour and all shields except tower shields.

Aura of Evil The power of a Vengeant Knight's aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his class level.

Embrace the Darkness (Ex): The Vengeant Knight gains damage reduction equal to his class level against attacks with the [Evil] descriptor, such as melee damage inflicted by creatures with the [Evil] subtype.

Inexorable Evil (Ex): The Vengeant Knights's melee and ranged attacks are considered to meet any alignment requirement necessary in order to overcome damage reduction.

Sense Kinship (Su): Evil calls to its own; a Vengeant Knight is considered to have the effects of a detect evil spell on his person at all times, except that he need not take any actions to gain the information, the range is 30ft and he can only discern the auras of creatures or objects within his line of sight. Any method that foils the detect evil spell will also foil this ability.

Smite (Ex): Once per day, as a standard action, a Vengeant Knight may attempt to smite a nongood sentient creature with a melee attack. He adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per Vengeant Knight level. All of the damage inflicted by this attack is Vile damage. If the Knight accidentally smites a creature that is mindless or good-aligned, the smite has no effect but the ability is still used up for that day.

At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the Vengeant Knight may smite one additional time per day, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level.

Original Sin (Ex): As a swift action, a Vengeant Knight can sacrifice up to his class level in hit points. He then gains the number of hit points sacrificed as a morale bonus to damage on all attacks made against evil creatures until the start of his next turn. The extra damage thus inflicted is Vile damage. If this ability is activated immediately prior to a Smite attack, the Smite gains two additional points of damage per hit point sacrificed, but no attacks other than the Smite gain the bonus damage from this use of the ability.

Strength of Corruption (Ex): At 2nd level, a Vengeant Knight gains a morale bonus equal to his Charisma bonus (at least +1) on all saving throws.

'Been There, Done That' (Ex): When you've embraced the worst that lies within yourself, what else is there to be afraid of? A Vengeant Knight of 3rd level or higher is immune to fear effects.

The Abyss Gazes Also (Su): Looking too long into the eyes of one who has caused or witnessed horrors can itself be dangerous. As a standard action, a Vengeant Knight can make a gaze attack against any creature within 60', causing traumatic memories and dark imaginings to spew forth from their subconscious and root them to the spot with fear. A targeted creature who fails a Will save (DC = 10 + Vengeant Knight's class level + Chr bonus) can take no actions - including movement - other than the 'total defense' action until the end of the Vengeant Knight's next turn.

This is a supernatural, mind-affecting, fear effect.

The Quality of Mercy (Ex): If a melee attack carried out by a Vengeant Knight would reduce an opponent to 0 hit points or lower, he may, at his option, choose to instead inflict a dreadful wound that leaves his opponent with 1 hit point, but racked with agonising pain. On subsequent turns, the Vengeant Knight can spend a full-round action to put his enemy to the question. The creature thus afflicted must make a Fortitude save every round (DC = 10 + Vengeant Knight's class level + Chr bonus) or be forced to answer the Knight's question fully and truthfully to the best of their ability. The Knight and the subject of this ability must share a common language in order for the questions and answers to be understood. Asking a single question (and receiving an answer, if any) takes one round, after which the Vengeant Knight must spend another full-round action to question his enemy further.

The Vengeant Knight can maintain his victim in this state for a maximum of one round per class level. At the end of this period, or if the Vengeant Knight discontinues his interrogation for any reason, the pain ends and the victim either dies (-10hp) or is left with 1 hit point, at the Knight's option.

A creature prepared to face death rather than talk can attempt a Will save (DC = 10 + Vengeant Knight's class level + Chr bonus). If successful, the victim dies immediately. This ability does not function on undead, constructs or creatures otherwise immune to pain.

Battle Not With Monsters (Su): At 5th level, the Vengeant Knight's gaze attack becomes more potent. At his option, the victim is afflicted with violent rage instead of being rooted to the spot. This ability functions in all respects like the confusion spell, except that a target who fails the Will save (DC = 10 + Vengeant Knight's class level + Chr bonus) always attacks the nearest creature, and the duration of this effect is 3 rounds.

This is a supernatural, mind-affecting ability.

Nowhere to Hide (Su): A creature marked for death by a Vengeant Knight is surely doomed. As a standard action, the Vengeant Knight can concentrate to discern the location of any opponent upon whom he has inflicted Vile damage with any of his class abilities. The ability functions in all ways as per the locate creature spell, except that it is not blocked by running water, is not fooled by polymorph-like abilities so long as the target retains their original personality and has a duration of 'concentration'.

The Vengeant Knight can only discern the location of one creature at a time with this power, although he can switch to a different viable target with another standard action. The Vengeant Knight can continue to use this ability until such time as his opponent has managed to heal the Vile damage he has inflicted. Vile damage inflicted by means other than the Vengeant Knight's class abilities - such as a Vile weapon, or spells gained from another class - does not count for the purpose of determining whether the Knight can locate a creature in this fashion.

The Enemy Within (Su): At 7th level, the Vengeant Knight can make the evil in a creature's soul rise up against them. Once per day, as a standard action, a Vengeant Knight can make a gaze attack against any sentient nongood creature within 60'. This attack functions in all ways as a phantasmal killer spell, except that the phantasm cannot be turned back upon the Vengeant Knight by the use of a helm of telepathy, and a successful Fortitude save results in 1d6 points of damage per class level of the Knight. The DC of both saves is (10 + Vengeant Knight's class level + Chr bonus). The Vengeant Knight gains a further use of this ability per day at 11th level, and again at 15th and 19th level.

You're Next (Ex): From 9th level onward, any creature of the Vengeant Knight's CR-2 or less that witnesses a Smite or Quality of Mercy attack is automatically shaken for the duration of the encounter. Witnessing further such attacks will cause affected creatures to become frightened and then panicked as usual. There is no saving throw against this effect, but mindless creatures and creatures otherwise immune to fear are unaffected.

My Evil Twin (Su): When targeted by, or in the area of, a spell or spell-like ability that allows a saving throw and that would normally not affect (or have a reduced effect upon) the Vengeant Knight because of his evil alignment, he can choose as an immediate action for the spell or effect to function as though he were of the alignment targeted. If he succeeds in his saving throw, the caster or originator of the effect suffers the result of the attack as though they were in the area and of an alignment that would normally suffer the attack's full effects. The Vengeant Knight need not be able to see the caster for this ability to function, but he must have line of effect. If the caster would normally be immune to the effects of the spell for reasons other than alignment, they are not otherwise rendered vulnerable.

If the Vengeant Knight fails his initial saving throw, he is affected normally by the spell as though he were of a targeted alignment and the caster is unaffected by the attempt.

**********

I know it's only half-done and that the skills probably need revisiting, but what do you think of the concept? Is it something like what you were after?

[Judging__Eagle]

I'd play one. You could put in an option that fallen paladins can trade out all of their levels for levels of this class.

[Fwib]

I quite like the VK

[Gelare]

Dude, that Vengeant Knight is really cool. I would probably spread some of the lower level abilities out a bit, to discourage dipping for only a few levels, and also to fill in some of those dead levels later on. But overall, very nice.

[Aktariel]

OK, OK, fair enough. It's a reasonable goal. If you're going to make this class campaign-agnostic, you're going to have to come up with a character who is evil (or Evil, according to your lights) but who for some reason mostly doesn't do Evil things.

Except, of course, to Evil creatures.

You're still going to be shafted by area effects that target Evil or nongood alignments, but we can live with that I suppose. Are you after something that's modelled on the Paladin as a base concept, or would you prefer a class that isn't shit? Erm... Sorry, I mean a class that doesn't have a piddling handful of divine spells and the ability to cure disease a few times per week as a substitute for actual class features.

I'll stick a few random ideas down and you can say whether or not they're what you're looking for. Part of the aim here is to get some of the "evil" stuff in, but in such a way that players don't have to act out the most grisly aspects of what such a character might do.

I've been here long enough to know that the Core Paladin is shit; (what do you take me for? Really now.) I was actually looking at the Kantian Paladin when I was trying to come up with ideas.

Also, I personally have no qualms about the grislier side of evil, and am ok with stabbing everyone in an adventure in the face; this thread was started because I wanted to do efficiently, and retain the option of only killing "bad guys." Which being "evil" in DnD doesn't really let you do.

Vengeant Knight

Pretty sweet, no lie. You're right it needs some tweaking, but if built off of the KP, would kick ass.

Reminds me of the Grey Knight PrCl, which is after all what we might be shooting for.

Of course, there's about three things we could be shooting for here, and I'm not sure which of them I like the best so....

More morality discussion!

But yes. I like the idea. Would be interested in helping you flesh it out.

[Kaelik]

One problem I see is the saving throws.

10+Class level+ Cha mod is higher then any other saving throw in the game. (standard is half class level).

So a level 5 Vengeance Knight throws out DC 24 confusions. And a level 20 VK throws out DC 47 Confusions and Phantasmal Killers.

Now maybe you mean for it to have high DCs to overcome it's shortcomings (mind affecting fear effect), but that strikes me as really bad design, especially for a PC, because now the DM has the choice of only sending immune creatures, or accepting that all his creatures are always going to be confused.

I mean, something that always works except when immune, and immunity is easy is just going to piss of either the VK or the DM.

[Quantumboost]

A couple nitpicks/concerns, assuming you're going forward with this...

Sense Kinship (Su): Evil calls to its own; a Vengeant Knight is considered to have the effects of a detect evil spell on his person at all times, except that he need not take any actions to gain the information, the range is 30ft and he can only discern the auras of creatures or objects within his line of sight. Any method that foils the detect evil spell will also foil this ability.

It may be worth mentioning whether they get the full effects of the 3rd round of detect evil immediately - as written, it's potentially confusing whether you get all the benefits of detect evil immediately or whether moving to a new area means that you have to wait 3 rounds for the detect to get full power in the new area.

Smite (Ex): Once per day, as a standard action, a Vengeant Knight may attempt to smite a nongood sentient creature with a melee attack. He adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per Vengeant Knight level. All of the damage inflicted by this attack is Vile damage. If the Knight accidentally smites a creature that is mindless or good-aligned, the smite has no effect but the ability is still used up for that day.

Either "mindless" should probably be replaced with "nonsentient", or "sentient" should be replaced with something like "non-mindless". It makes a difference in whether you can smite bears. (as written, you can't anyway, which I suspect is the intent, but this is for consistency's sake)

My Evil Twin (Su): When targeted by, or in the area of, a spell or spell-like ability that allows a saving throw and that would normally not affect (or have a reduced effect upon) the Vengeant Knight because of his evil alignment, he can choose as an immediate action for the spell or effect to function as though he were of the alignment targeted. If he succeeds in his saving throw, the caster or originator of the effect suffers the result of the attack as though they were in the area and of an alignment that would normally suffer the attack's full effects. The Vengeant Knight need not be able to see the caster for this ability to function, but he must have line of effect. If the caster would normally be immune to the effects of the spell for reasons other than alignment, they are not otherwise rendered vulnerable.

If the Vengeant Knight fails his initial saving throw, he is affected normally by the spell as though he were of a targeted alignment and the caster is unaffected by the attempt.

This seems like it's supposed to work on both spells like "Holy Smite" and buffs that might only affect nonevil characters, but the wording is confusing since it seems to go straight from the "buff" section to the "omgboom" section without a transition. The following modification might work better:

My Evil Twin (Su): When targeted by, or in the area of, a spell or spell-like ability that allows a saving throw and that would normally not affect (or have a reduced effect upon) the Vengeant Knight because of his evil alignment, he can choose as an immediate action for the spell or effect to function as though he were of the alignment targeted.

If he succeeds in his saving throw against a harmful spell or effect which would normally affect him because of his evil alignment, the caster or originator of the effect suffers the result of the attack as though they were in the area and of an alignment that would normally suffer the attack's full effects. The Vengeant Knight need not be able to see the caster for this ability to function, but he must have line of effect. If the caster would normally be immune to the effects of the spell for reasons other than alignment, they are not otherwise rendered vulnerable.

If the Vengeant Knight fails his initial saving throw, he is affected normally by the spell as though he were of a targeted alignment and the caster is unaffected by the attempt.

And I definitely like the class. Would be awesome to play when finished.

[Amra]

I was extremely tired when I threw the class out so I'm actually pretty pleased it didn't get torn into tinier pieces than that in the first instance! Totally agreed that several of the abilities need reworking.

I was always going to fill up the dead levels, which I will do tomorrow (would do it tonight but I've got a band rehearsal) and if anyone has any suggestions in the meantime, drop 'em here.

I was thinking of maybe tweaking some existing abilities so that they come down to opposed rolls between the VK and another evil dude; a sort of "soul battle" type affair where the biggest badass wins. Do you think that would work?

Kaelik, I'd probably agree that the save DC's are a bit high, but where are you getting the enormous Charisma bonuses from? I'm probably being dense here but I wouldn't have expected a 5th-level PC to be walking around with a +9 Chr modifier, particularly in light of the fact that as a melee guy the VK is already going to have MAD problems from his reliance on Charisma as a stat.

Bear in mind that at low levels both the Wizard and the Cleric are throwing down hoodoo that has no saving throw and much the same in-game effect. At 20th level I Just Don't Care because the number of insta-kills flying around - more generally applicable than that, too - means that those abilities are pretty much background noise.

I was hoping to ensure he'd have MUCH more interesting things to do with his time by then

I'll be pretty happy if I can make a class that's playable anywhere beyond 13th level, to be honest!

[RandomCasualty2]

Well, first off, you don't need to have the word "evil" stamped on a PrC or ability in order to use it with an anti-hero. By that standard, almost everything in the game can be used by anti-heroes.

I find neutral tends to make the best anti-hero honestly.

Evil people are just selfish pricks who really don't care about being heroes at all. They don't want to save the world, and they're terrible team players for the most part.

[Kaelik]

It's a +7 Charisma and ability focus.

Honestly, I don't see anything he can do that's actually better then his Super save confusion for a really really long time (against anyone not immune to it). Except his I automatically win all combats against lower CR enemies who are subject to fear after level 9 ability.

Also, 1) No Wizard's really aren't throwing down no save stuff with the same level of power, not unless they are lucky enough to be fighting only animals.

2) As I said, I think it's a bad design choice to throw out abilities tied around a save and then push the save so far beyond likely roles. When you have an ability with 10+Class level+ attribute DC save usable at will, you might as well make it no save, since he's pretty much going to have a DC 10+ greater then 90% of creatures/monsters good save.

And to make it will? Well now it beats everyone who isn't a Cleric or Druid. every time.

[Amra]

I think +7 Charisma is a bit unlikely at 5th level, particularly for a melee character, but I do agree that the saves are a bit high.

DC = 10 + half character level + Chr, perhaps? Maybe chuck in Ability Focus for free at 7th or 9th level?

1) You're right about Wizards not handing out the same level of mojo as the confusion-type ability; I was thinking about The Abyss Gazes Also when I wrote that.

2) Well we're going to tweak the saves, but Clerics, Druids, Monks, Paladins and any number of PrC's would give a save bonus plenty high enough to give a better than 50/50 chance of making many of these saves even with the bar set too high as at present. That's always the problem at later levels; it turns into rock/paper/scissors.

@RC: Well yeah, but a) the brief was "how can I play an evil character that doesn't suck" and b) everything you said could just as easily be applied to a Neutral character, depending entirely on how it's played. A Paladin can be - and often is - portrayed as someone who finds it nigh-impossible to fit into a party. This is one way I thought the brief could be fulfilled in a manner that might fly; a guy who doesn't want to be a hero and couldn't give a shit about saving the world but gets his rocks off on the delicious irony of slaughtering people who think that *they're* Evil badasses and thus is perfectly happy to ally with a Good party and even cooperate wholeheartedly... provided that they don't get between him and his preferred targets.

With regard to the "You're Next" ability, is it OK as it stands or does it need to be toned down? The options I see are either "make it CR-3" or "make it not stack with itself as a fear effect".

@Quantumboost: yup, I agree pretty much 100% with all suggested tweaks and I will revise the description accordingly tomorrow.

[Roy]

Well, first off, you don't need to have the word "evil" stamped on a PrC or ability in order to use it with an anti-hero. By that standard, almost everything in the game can be used by anti-heroes.

I find neutral tends to make the best anti-hero honestly.

Evil people are just selfish pricks who really don't care about being heroes at all. They don't want to save the world, and they're terrible team players for the most part.

Lawful Evil. Looks out for their own as an investment, doesn't hesitate to do almost anything to destroy their enemies. Combine it with a sufficiently high Charisma/Bluff, and it can actually seem as if you care quite a bit.

[Cynic]

Evil people [...] don't want to save the world

I really didn't want to get into a morality discussion because it just goes down the tube but I just couldn't resist biting into it. I'm sorry that's some of the most Black and White morality I've heard in a while. This world I live on is going to explode into horrible horrible pieces but I shall let it go for I am evil. So what if I do have this intellect of 38 and I have set myself as a character who loves all his material wealth or all his intellectual capacity and all that will be destroyed because I will go away along with the world. Oh, well. I'm EVIL, I don't want to save the world.

Emphasis mine*

[virgil]

That kind of description you just gave isn't someone that wants to save the world, so much as they want to save themselves because they're on the world.

Then there's the other fact, people aren't walking avatars of their alignment. They can actually want good things here and there, and still be evil.