Size modifiers in D&D 3.5

[Bigode]

As we all know, depending on which section of the rules you read, size does or does not alter one's physical scores in fixed ways. And, to use the most common case (since rarely creatures, for example, get smaller as part of gaining CR) as example, big creatures are triply rewarded in a set of activities: by being stronger, by size bonuses, and by higher BABs derived some times from "it's bigger, so it has more hp" (which you could, duh, get with higher Con), and in others by using unsuitable types (derived from defining types by fluff instead of parctical use and then making fey warriors - you see, the game would've been better if monsters having PC class levels was actually the standard practice). The triple reward, of course, explodes the RNG.

And, I'm already more or less on-mark for representing lots of monsters while clinging to HD = CR = ECL, but the size adjustments have shown some problems, say, on my dragon class (and giant was next ). So, what I'm looking at's to have size not modify ability scores at all: "how strong one is" would be dependant solely on, well, "how strong one is"; then size changes space, reach and ... other things: namely attack, AC and special attack modifiers. Or not.

The exponential progression of attack/AC adjustment means there isn't a standard amount of say, Str able to compensate size attack penalties, so the official 3.5 setup doesn't work anyway, and, should Str adjustments be kept, either them or the attack adjustments would need changes. My solution's so far to linearize attack/AC adjustment and just say size can make you better/worse at hitting/not getting hit; some non-standard-sized creatures compensate for this and others don't. I'm considering a straight +-1/size.

Finally, given that the possibility of really high Str's still sorta on-table and I'm entertaining Colossal (or Fine) creatures actually being playable, their +-16 special attack modifiers seem sorta unwelcome, and I consider just halving those, because fortunately at least they're linear already.

Recap: size wouldn't change ability scores, special attack modifiers would be halved, attack/AC would be the exact reverse of special attacks, and everything else'd be unchanged. Oh, yeah, size modifiers on Move Silently too; an elephant not being intrinsically more noisy seems ... strange (and it's not like they aren't disincentivized to be sneaky already).

Thoughts?

[CatharzGodfoot]

I think that you're on the right track. Size and attributes should not be directly tied together, and bigger things should be inherently easier to hit.

However, D&D does things a little strangely. AC isn't actually 'not being hit', it's 'not being hit or deflecting something that hits'. 'Not being hit' is touch AC, and therefore larger creatures should have penalties to their touch AC and smaller creatures should get bonuses.

As far as size-based bonuses: in the real world, bugger things are stronger. In a fantasy world, you can have ephemeral giants made out of ribbons. I don't think that being bigger should make a character harder to trip, or make it easier for her to trip others: that's the purpose of Strength. Similarly, in a fantasy world there's no reason that something really big should be any noisier; something clumsy or heavy will be noisier, but not something bigger.

So, basically, I'd remove all size-based bonuses and leave in an AC penalty adjustment of some kind. The easy route would be to give a dodge bonus to little critters, a natural armor bonus and AC penalty to big ones, and increase armor bonus with size.

[PhoneLobster]

I agree I don't think that you need to accurately represent strength by size for everything between a mouse and an elephant while it is clear we really want to cover a size range greater than that in the things the game represents.

So size needs to be a little less of a whopping great mechanical stick to hit character and monster concepts over the head with.

The biggest thing it should do is determine how large a space you can squeeze into.

[Talisman]

Kill size modifiers to grapple checks.

I feel very strongly about this.

Aside from that...yeah, I'd say keep the AC/attack modifiers (since something the size of a barn should be easier to hit than something the size of a shoe) but kill all the rest of 'em. Larger creatures tend to be stronger just because...larger creatures are stronger. They have the Strength they have.

[Crissa]

What about size bonuses to carrying capacity? Elsewise you have giants that cannot wear clothes or wield a tree. Which might be interesting, but...

...Also, why not to grapple checks? Why would that make grapple checks more balanced? So a pixie can judo-throw people?

-Crissa

[ckafrica]

I agree with Crissa, it doesn't make sense that a medium creature would be equal for grappling to something Huge. I could see making feats that make grappling large opponents easier but having your average character suplexing dragons seems wrong.

I do concur with getting rid of STR bonuses, they already get bigger damage dice. Giving the the massive to hit bonus as well kind of sucks

[Koumei]

It sounds like what you want to do is take away all the things that make being Large worthwhile, and leaving the penalties in, and the benefits for being small, so that everyone tries to play a pixie.

And you can do that if you want, but it's a bit lame. If being bigger makes you less stealthy, it also makes you better at grappling. Because you're big and heavy.

Likewise, you could give smaller things the AC bonus, and give the bigger things an AC penalty but a natural armour bonus that's equal to double the penalty (so for non-touch attacks it breaks even with being smaller, due to their skin/scales/whatever now being inches thick. For touch attacks, they're barn sized so they get poked a lot).

[CatharzGodfoot]

What about size bonuses to carrying capacity? Elsewise you have giants that cannot wear clothes or wield a tree. Which might be interesting, but...

The carrying capacity of a larger creature should scale up, because the weight it carries is distributed. Remember that many large and larger creatures should be stronger, but with an even scaling up rather than Bam! +12!

...Also, why not to grapple checks? Why would that make grapple checks more balanced? So a pixie can judo-throw people?

-Crissa

So that a leopard can wrestle a horse to the ground.
But maybe that's more of an argument for the suggested linear bonuses than no bonuses at all.

[Quantumboost]

By the current 3.x rules you already get more carrying capacity for being Large or larger than you get for being Medium, even with the same Strength score.

A Large creature has a carrying capacity of three times as much, while their weapons and armor (footnote 1 in both cases) weigh twice as much. So a Large creature can carry its own, heavier, equipment without even bothering with having a higher Strength.

Not sure whether the weapons/armor weight scaling works with larger than Large creatures.

[RandomCasualty2]

...Also, why not to grapple checks? Why would that make grapple checks more balanced? So a pixie can judo-throw people?

Mainly so that PCs don't get super screwed at high levels by huge grapple creatures.

It'd be okay to keep the size restriction on grappling, so you still can't grapple something way bigger than you, but being bigger shouldn't give you a ton of bonuses to grab other people. Maybe just a generic +4 to grapple if larger than the other creature would be enough. Instead of +4/size category.

[Bigode]

As far as size-based bonuses: in the real world, bugger things are stronger.

Indeed, bugs (the buggest things ever, AFAIK) are pretty strong. : P

Similarly, in a fantasy world there's no reason that something really big should be any noisier; something clumsy or heavy will be noisier, but not something bigger.

Well, there's ample precedent for humanoids being as strong as larger creatures; but, as far as we compare flesh-and-blood creatures on both sides, I think the rule's still "larger, noisier" - BTW, large creatures can also be harder to see via bizarre morphology, but that's the point of giving creatures their specific traits.

I feel very strongly about this.

Any actual reason? Seems like Koumei's right: a plan to get people on playing pixies.

So that a leopard can wrestle a horse to the ground.
But maybe that's more of an argument for the suggested linear bonuses than no bonuses at all.

AFAICT, felines don't pin or lift much; they overrun or hold on (RoW) - the first's benefitted by charging, possibly enough to compensate for a linearly smaller bonus, while the second does favor the smaller.

[CatharzGodfoot]

As far as size-based bonuses: in the real world, bugger things are stronger.

Indeed, bugs (the buggest things ever, AFAIK) are pretty strong. : P

You're probably aware than once bugs get to around the size of a cat, they're barely strong enough to stand on their own six legs. Mantis shrimp are fast, but they're not going to be punching a person to death.

Similarly, in a fantasy world there's no reason that something really big should be any noisier; something clumsy or heavy will be noisier, but not something bigger.

Well, there's ample precedent for humanoids being as strong as larger creatures; but, as far as we compare flesh-and-blood creatures on both sides, I think the rule's still "larger, noisier" - BTW, large creatures can also be harder to see via bizarre morphology, but that's the point of giving creatures their specific traits.

That's a good point. Fits right in with the rules for incorporeal creatures anyway.

So that a leopard can wrestle a horse to the ground.
But maybe that's more of an argument for the suggested linear bonuses than no bonuses at all.

AFAICT, felines don't pin or lift much; they overrun or hold on (RoW) - the first's benefitted by charging, possibly enough to compensate for a linearly smaller bonus, while the second does favor the smaller.

My main problem is that a horse can easily grapple a person to death. That's just plain wrong. Grappling is supposed to be a sport where a smaller opponent can best a larger one by using superior technique, leverage, and strength. That's in opposition to melee combat, where reach gives the larger creature a big advantage.

[Koumei]

Grappling is supposed to be a sport where a smaller opponent can best a larger one by using superior technique, leverage, and strength. That's in opposition to melee combat, where reach gives the larger creature a big advantage.

I don't know what grappling you're thinking of, but I'm pretty sure it's SERIOUS BUSINESS where one person wins by nailing the other with a chair-shot when the referee is knocked out.

...and this is why you should be able to sneak attack someone you're grappling.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Grappling is supposed to be a sport where a smaller opponent can best a larger one by using superior technique, leverage, and strength. That's in opposition to melee combat, where reach gives the larger creature a big advantage.

I don't know what grappling you're thinking of, but I'm pretty sure it's SERIOUS BUSINESS where one person wins by nailing the other with a chair-shot when the referee is knocked out.

...and this is why you should be able to sneak attack someone you're grappling.

That's "professional wrestling", Komei, not grappling.

[Talisman]

My reasons for hating size-based grapple mods are simple: they utterly screw PCs (until freedom of movement comes along, at which point grappling ceases to happen).

Big monsters should grapple better. Some monsters are grapplers. Fair enough. This, however, can be dealt with via high BAB (due to lots of HD), high Strength (due to...having a high Strength) and racial grapple bonuses (if you live by grappling, it's only fair that you get a specific bonus - see grell).

Unless it's a unique puzzle monster, a full-BAB, high-Strength warrior-type PC should have a chance to escape or out-grapple a grapple-monster of equivalent level.


I once ran the math. I used a full-BAB character with a starting Strength of 16, all level-up bonuses going to Strength, and Strength-boosting items at appropriate levels. I compared this character's grapple ability to every monster with Improved Grab in the MM.

Out of 70 monsters, 33 gave a chance of success of less than 25%. Of those, 14 had a success chance in the negatives. A CR 6 Tendriculos offers you a -15% chance of success. Your chance to escape the grapple of a CR 12 Kraken is negative 75%.

I then stripped out all size-based grapple modifiers. The result was that the number of "problem monsters" dropped to 10, and only three of these - the kraken, the tarrasque, and the colossal scorpion - are in the negatives.

I know this wasn't an optimal grapple build - a barbarian or a monk could do better, and a rogue could theoretically sneak attack a grapple-monster to death while grappled - but monsters shouldn't be built assuming a specific uber-build. They should be built to allow a resonable chance of success for a reasonable character.

[Koumei]

I know this wasn't an optimal grapple build - a wizard or cleric could do better

Fixed.

But yes, they should at least allow some chance for reasonably built characters to escape their attack - if you're not a grapple-focused character, I don't care that you can't chokeslam most monsters, but that shouldn't mean every tentacled/big monster can put you in a sharpshooter with no escape.

Catharz: I know, I was taking the piss. That being said, professional wrestling is more suited to D&D than jujitsu is.

[ubernoob]

Shouldn't druid be included too? Wildshape is pretty hawt and they get things like bite of XXX.

[Bigode]

You're probably aware than once bugs get to around the size of a cat, they're barely strong enough to stand on their own six legs. Mantis shrimp are fast, but they're not going to be punching a person to death.

Yeah, I know, but sorry, I had to make something of the typo. : P

My main problem is that a horse can easily grapple a person to death. That's just plain wrong. Grappling is supposed to be a sport where a smaller opponent can best a larger one by using superior technique, leverage, and strength. That's in opposition to melee combat, where reach gives the larger creature a big advantage.

Crap. As for horses specifically, one could just say "it requires hands, you fvcker" - but while exchanges of blows might favor large creatures (and they might not depending on exact rules; for example, Tumble exists), I totally don't get your point of grappling favor the smaller - wrestling, judo and swallow whole (unless one used a distinct rule, but there'd still be the other 2) point to much the opposite. And while, yeah, I'd want to represent, say, aikido, I'd fix Setting Sun (Tome of Battle) for that - even your stereotypical agile fighters do tend to get screwed by grappling, so I've no problem with it requiring special technique (as long as it does pay its opportunity cost off, of course).

Talisman: go read HD = CR = ECL until it enters your head.

[angelfromanotherpin]

My main problem is that a horse can easily grapple a person to death. That's just plain wrong.[/i]

Why? A horse can easily grapple a person to death. I've done wrestling and judo, and mass fucking matters. It takes considerable skill to compensate for someone who weighs 50 lbs more than you. A horse, who weighs at least 600 lbs more than you, is going to own your face. They don't even have to struggle, they can just lean on you, because you can't even shift 850 lbs.

Grappling is supposed to be a sport where a smaller opponent can best a larger one by using superior technique, leverage, and strength. That's in opposition to melee combat, where reach gives the larger creature a big advantage.

Skill helps, but there's a reason wrestlers tend to be big guys. If anything, size should be a bigger advantage in grappling than in melee combat, but in either case, big is a big advantage.

[Talisman]

Talisman: go read HD = CR = ECL until it enters your head.

Your point?

[Bigode]

This, however, can be dealt with via high BAB (due to lots of HD) ...

That's retarded.

Unless it's a unique puzzle monster, a full-BAB, high-Strength warrior-type PC should have a chance to escape or out-grapple a grapple-monster of equivalent level.

That's almost impossible if the D&D HD paradigm's kept.

[CatharzGodfoot]

...but while exchanges of blows might favor large creatures (and they might not depending on exact rules; for example, Tumble exists), I totally don't get your point of grappling favor the smaller - wrestling, judo and swallow whole (unless one used a distinct rule, but there'd still be the other 2) point to much the opposite. And while, yeah, I'd want to represent, say, aikido, I'd fix Setting Sun (Tome of Battle) for that - even your stereotypical agile fighters do tend to get screwed by grappling, so I've no problem with it requiring special technique (as long as it does pay its opportunity cost off, of course).

Skill helps, but there's a reason wrestlers tend to be big guys. If anything, size should be a bigger advantage in grappling than in melee combat, but in either case, big is a big advantage.

Sorry to kick a dead horse some more, but Odysseus has Super Strength 1, and Aias has Super Strength 2 or 3. Aias is also taller (and therefore has better reach). His downfall is that he doesn't realize that wrestling is not a sport for only the big and strong to win, so he agrees to grapple Odysseus for Achilles' armor. Odysseus wins, and Aias (the big and dumb) is so embarrassed that he kills himself.

It's been said before that Odysseus is a Str/Cha or Str/Int hero, but in D&D/Superhero terms that just isn't how it works out. He's an expert archer (which runs off Dex), and an expert grappler (which apparently doesn't run off Str, at least in his case). His minor Super Strength (which his young son equals him in) is simply there because it's part of the 'Greek Hero' template.

So maybe we have a skill like 'Escape Artist' which can make high-Dex high-Skill characters good at getting out of grapples, but I don't know if that explains everything. It's probably not a big deal if Odysseus needs 18's across the board (he is a super hero, after all). Certainly giant snakes should be good at swallowing people whole.

My main problem is that a horse can easily grapple a person to death. That's just plain wrong.[/i]

Why? A horse can easily grapple a person to death. I've done wrestling and judo, and mass fucking matters. It takes considerable skill to compensate for someone who weighs 50 lbs more than you. A horse, who weighs at least 600 lbs more than you, is going to own your face. They don't even have to struggle, they can just lean on you, because you can't even shift 850 lbs.

This I'd like to see. You don't have to be able to lift someone you're grappling to defeat them, but getting leaned on by a horse can pin you pretty effectively when there's a wall. Horse-wresting should totally be a televised sport. The only problem: animals that get wrestled usually just want to escape. If a horse is really mad, it will just try to get away (and then maybe kick the shit out of you). If an alligator is really mad, it will just try to get away (and then bite your arm off and drag you underwater). If you try to stay on a bull with its testicles in a vice, it will try to escape (and then charge).

[Bigode]

Sorry to kick a dead horse some more, but Odysseus has Super Strength 1, and Aias has Super Strength 2 or 3. Aias is also taller (and therefore has better reach). His downfall is that he doesn't realize that wrestling is not a sport for only the big and strong to win, so he agrees to grapple Odysseus for Achilles' armor. Odysseus wins, and Aias (the big and dumb) is so embarrassed that he kills himself.

You can even wrestle the dead horse if you want. : P Or do you think hearing about how X is retarded's (referring to usual "Threads that we hate" talk, not TNE) better than actually having a discussion? Anyway, I'm afraid that's because Odysseus has the awesome subtype - it wouldn't be implausible to assume he's just higher level, I think.

This I'd like to see. You don't have to be able to lift someone you're grappling to defeat them, but getting leaned on by a horse can pin you pretty effectively when there's a wall. Horse-wresting should totally be a televised sport. The only problem: animals that get wrestled usually just want to escape. If a horse is really mad, it will just try to get away (and then maybe kick the shit out of you). If an alligator is really mad, it will just try to get away (and then bite your arm off and drag you underwater). If you try to stay on a bull with its testicles in a vice, it will try to escape (and then charge).

Irrelevant. Insert the intelligent and evil nightmare in the horse's place if you must. Those leaning on someone might indeed count as a grapple (and it only actually needs the ground), which might lead me to retract the previous statement about hands.

[name_here]

also, at a point the larger monsters can just pick you up in one hand-like appendage. and you are going to use your superior skill to escape that and out-wrestle the monster by?

[Draco_Argentum]

Like it or not, if the rules make high grapple monsters auto win grapples then the rules are shit. Being large and strong doesn't make you super badass at grappling because that makes the game stop working.