The Tyranny of Fun

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Psychic Robot
Prince
Posts: 4607
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 10:47 pm

The Tyranny of Fun

Post by Psychic Robot »

A brilliant individual by the name of Melan wrote something awhile ago, and I dredged it up because I vaguely recalled the whispers of a term: "tyranny of fun." As I read it, I found myself agreeing--"fun" certainly has sunk its fangs into D&D and will not let go. This "fun" spells the ruination of D&D, all that the older editions stood for...all in its perverse name.

"Fun." Not fun, but "fun." We can no longer have fun.
...[W]hy does the Wizards of the Coast R&D team strive for so strict a balance and why does it intend to strip away out-of-box options from you? I call this phenomenon the tyranny of fun. A ludicrous name for a ludicrous concept, but there you have it. The WotC designers are not bad people. I am sure, for example, that the folks working there don’t hate the game or anything, maybe they don’t even kick puppies on their way home. Maybe they help old ladies across the street. They want you to have fun. Good, yes? Yes? No. The idea went wrong long ago and it shows no signs of getting better. When dealing with game philosophy, Wizards R&D doesn’t concentrate on thinking up stuff that makes playing fun anymore. That’s 1970s TSR thinking. Moreover, fun is inherently subjective and hard to quantify - all we can have is meaningless truisms like „the game is about killing critters and taking their stuff”, „getting loot and powering up”, „playing my character” or „sitting around and eating chips”. That’s not very helpful - it is all true, of course, but it doesn’t really tell you what to do to emphasise this in the game. So instead, they try to remove things from the game which are not fun. What isn’t fun? The things the fans complain about. But who complains? In short, the kind of people older rulebooks (and pardon my edition snobbery, but that’s just how I see it) warned us about. People whose characters got their swords destroyed by a rust monster and who threw a hissy fit over it. People whose characters died to a hold person spell and who wrote angry letters to Dragon magazine. People who didn’t have fun, whose entertainment was destroyed by this monster or that spell. Meet WotC’s focus groups, meet the people who are the target audience for future releases. The people 4e will be designed to accommodate.

Oh, I don’t have high hopes that these changes can be or will ever be „stopped”. ENWorld is ample proof of that. There comes a change like destroying the creative concept behind the rust monster, and there is a chorus of approving posts praising this decision as if it was the second coming of Our Lord Sliced Bread. Because, after all, D&D before „it was evolved” was a horribly designed, bad, bad game people didn’t have fun with and which didn’t sell, right? Right? According to WotC R&D (heh, R&D... I wonder if EGG ever had an „R&D” department), people who didn’t like D&D before are the people D&D should be designed for in the future, because that’s smart business. I am not making this up either.

There is, of course, the inevitable counter-reaction from reactionaries who don’t appreciate the changes and dare to suggest that hey, it was good the way it used to be, and there is no overwhelming need to „re-design it to be proper at last”. These rose-coloured glass-wearing fools even suggest that the design shouldn’t be used. Naive thinking. In fact, they will accomplish very little. The debate will flow back and forth for a while, and in the end, the sides will agree to meet halfway. And gee, you just conceded your position, dice-boy. You were suckered into accepting that maybe they are right. Maybe it really was bad design all along and it were your pleasant experiences that were false.

The final response is always going to be to remove any edge, any colour, to remove randomness and introduce standardised fair play into the game which started out as highly arbitrary and whimsical - in short, fantastic and open to creative interpretation.

This response is the symptom of a design culture which would never be capable of designing a game like Dungeons &Dragons.

And that is a pity.
...To me, the point of RPGs is that they are active entertainment - you get to create things yourself, you get to excercise your common sense and judgement, and you get to share these two things with your friends to get something else you may not have even thought of. Very few things come close (although I have taken up level editing for the Thief2 computer game in the last year, which is stimulating in a different kind of way - more like LEGO than D&D). The third aspect is socialisation - someone on RPGNet once called RPGs hospitality games; games where you invite people into your own home in an age of decreasing face to face communication. That's also a good point.

I worry that new D&D, and in fact the new common face of gaming is undermining these progressive features of roleplaying games. In-play options are reduced by rule codification and the standardisation of "fair play" (instead granting the illusion of choice through character customisation - I argue that this is far less substantial than it is considered). Common sense is being attacked as "neither common nor sensible"; instead, designers and the game culture suggests yet more regulations over play by people who know best. This is the tyranny of fun part, and also the part where resentment/distrust of GMs and GMing comes up most regularly. There is a sort of assumption that GMs are not suited to create source material, even adventures for their players; that they are in dire need of Official Game Designer Wisdom, to be had for $29.90 in slick, glossy volumes (and you'd better be prepared to buy five or six of these to really begin playing). Finally, the process and environment of roleplaying itself has been attacked through citing extreme negative examples, portraying it as an inherently dysfunctional hobby.

That, gentlemen, is the Axis of Stupid we are facing.

Coincidentally, there is a way out, although maybe only for a part of the hobby if the industry will not follow - and that means much smaller communities than you have now. Simply Do It Yourself. Enjoy creating stuff, or playing and running things you or your online or offline friends made and shared. Be selective with your friends and don't be a dick yourself. In short, examine and practice the principles our hobby was founded upon, and all will be well. Discard the (natural) urge for Officiality, don't become a passive gamer.
With 4e out and some time having passed, it's time to look back at my previous posts exploring the question whether the sort of fun - and fair play - championed in current game design is actually having a negative effect on the hobby. It appears to me that my worries, which predate 4e's announcement by quite a lot of time, have proven to be well founded, and 4th edition is very much an embodiment of the Tyranny of Fun philosophy.

Having read even more ENWorld since it has come back up, I can say with confidence that the effects are already prominent. 4th edition is strongly in support of the folks previous editions and gaming practice referred to as 'bad players', and their perspectives are currently dominant in gaming discourse. They are the people who couldn't deal with characters getting killed, complained because the game wasn't perfectly "balanced" (the solution? Uniformisation and sameness!), and got into nitpicky arguments over rules because they had neither the common sense nor shared trust to resolve situations amicably and avoid abusing the rules. These types now have an ideological support for their dickery - the dogma that common sense is in fact not possible or even desirable. A typical stance, I might add, for people who don't have any...

In the design philosophy of Wizards of the Coast, the Tyranny of Fun has been fully canonised. What started out as stupid experiments in game design and a few odd decisions became the driving philosophy behind the new edition. "Fun" as "continuous positive reinforcement" and something that comes purely from combat encounters is emphasised over everything else. While positive reinforcement and combat are of course important sources of fun, 4e neglects to emphasise others. The result is, predictably, a vulgar simplification of what roleplaying games can offer us, a lightweight but ultimately unsatisfactory form of feelgood passive entertainment. The sense of entitlement that comes with this simplification is a particularly poisonous aspect of the Tyranny of Fun, and goes back to the first point - encouraging bad players. It will of course not be impossible to run 4e in a less "gimme" style, but DMs who attempt it can be expected to face stronger opposition and disapproval; 4e's spirit is very much against playing a genuinely challenging campaign, since those are - of course - not fun in the canonical sense.

Finally, there is the matter of the fetishisation of "game design"; that is, how officially appointed game designers are touted - and gradually being accepted! - as the infallible arbiters of what is good and bad fun. I find this a very suspicious development in roleplaying. In a participatory hobby, where the roles of consumers and creators have been strongly blurred (and this blurriness was a core contributor to what made the games so addictive, so different from anything else - RPGs are a form of active mental/social entertainment which are otherwise very rare), we are seeing movement towards a stronger separation between the two. Officially designed and meticulously balanced fun is contrasted with the straw men of "bad DMing", supposedly so epidemic that very few people can "enjoy" games properly. It is suggested that only a qualified elite who "really" understand games can save us from the effects of horrible, horrible game design and our own supposed dysfunctions. Instead of fostering individual creativity, this philosophy casts suspicion and disapproval on it; "house rules", the elementary tools of customisation, are treated with derision and contempt. The message is clear: "you are incompetent, stupid and you need our help (that will be $39.9, please)". Gary Gygax tried this crap at his worst, and fortunately, people just pointed and laughed. Can the Wizards designers do what Gary could not? So far, it seems to me they are winning.

All in all, what we are seeing is the emergence of a philosophy that denies and stifles excellence while encouraging mediocrity and poor play. Attempting to "protect" gamers from their own mistakes will not result in better games - it will limit self-expression, the freedom of creativity and hinder the natural and easy learning process most of us have gone through. It will subtly, although of course not completely, shift roleplaying games towards more passive and consumption-oriented forms of entertainment. The roleplaying hobby will be poorer for it, and it can also be expected to experience slow and continuous shrinkage as it becomes apparent to people that passive and consumption-oriented forms of entertainment offer much better alternatives than sitting around a table and rolling polyhedral dice.
An absolutely brilliant critique of the design philosophy that drives WotC. Both well-written and incisive, it cuts right to the heart of this newest edition's problems.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Post by JonSetanta »

Thanks for bolding the choice bits, but try not to bold whole paragraphs. Just a few key phrases or a sentence here or there would suffice.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
shau
Knight-Baron
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by shau »

I find myself disagreeing with this guy more than I agree with him.
melan wrote:People whose characters got their swords destroyed by a rust monster and who threw a hissy fit over it. People whose characters died to a hold person spell and who wrote angry letters to Dragon magazine


A lot of the material written for the old editions seemed to focus on screwing you. I mean the stuff that was written like the old Choose Your Own Adventure Books.
typical adventure book wrote: You stand in front of a fork in the road.

To travel along the left path, go to page 47.
If you instead wish to take the right path, turn to page 199.

Page 47

A horrible beast leaps from the woods. You struggle to escape but to no avail. Your life and quest end here.
Honestly I think it is something of a generational thing. Look at how many ways games like Nethack has to screw you over. At the time that was perfectly fine, but nowadays most people just don't like that sort of thing anymore. I was pretty pissed that time an allip came out of the floor and wasted the whole party while we were stuck hypnotized.
melan wrote:4th edition is strongly in support of the folks previous editions and gaming practice referred to as 'bad players', and their perspectives are currently dominant in gaming discourse. They are the people who couldn't deal with characters getting killed, complained because the game wasn't perfectly "balanced" (the solution? Uniformisation and sameness!), and got into nitpicky arguments over rules because they had neither the common sense nor shared trust to resolve situations amicably and avoid abusing the rules
Is it me, or did he just say that game balance is not necessary or desirable as long as we have the Oberoni fallacy?
Manxome
Knight-Baron
Posts: 977
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Manxome »

Certainly contains some good points, though I think it gives a somewhat unbalanced view by itself, since it fails to acknowledge that legitimate problems did exist in previous editions (and in fact that some parts of the design philosophy that produced earlier editions are also totally insane, in different ways), and that dealing with those problems is a positive and useful endeavor (if only it were done well).

That doesn't necessarily mean that any particular point in the above quotes was wrong, just that I think the picture it paints is incomplete.

I'm sure I don't need to convince the people on this forum that 3e isn't perfect...
User avatar
Crissa
King
Posts: 6720
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Santa Cruz

Post by Crissa »

Nethack has lots of ways to kill you, but most of them are either accidental (and avoidable) or foreseeable (and avoidable).

There is lethality, but it's part of the game.

The time the gnome with the wand of death showed up on level 4 is just unfair.

-Crissa
User avatar
rapa-nui
Journeyman
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:23 am

Post by rapa-nui »

I'm with Manxome.

Also, I disagree that 4e is giving undue emphasis to "bad players". Although I'm sure they exist, when people got upset with the old D&D rules, it was generally for a good reason, and just as there were bad players, there were bad DMs. 4e has taekn away some of the more dickish things DMs could do, which is a start.
To the scientist there is the joy in pursuing truth which nearly counteracts the depressing revelations of truth. ~HP Lovecraft
User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Must. Contain. Frothing. Rage.

...Have useful things to work on tonight.....
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
User avatar
Ice9
Duke
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Ice9 »

There is a style of play, as seen in Nethack, and to some extent in older editions of D&D, that can be quite enjoyable if you come at it with the right state of mind. The game is "the world is a deadly place, let's see how far you can get". You're not the heroes, at least not for a while, and you're not necessarily going to fulfill any destiny or save the world - you might just get eaten by zombies or fall in some lava and die. But since you have no expectation of even survival, every success you achieve is an extra bonus, and becoming powerful is actually rewarding. Somewhat like playing a zombie-horror game, but you actually can succeed.

In that context, a lot of things, even rolling in order and capricious deathtraps, make sense. It's not about telling an epic story - it's about taking some explorer with a death wish and seeing how far you can get before fate catches up to you.


Now that's not the only style to play, and it's not really a binary distinction - there are lots of degrees from "you are some random peasants who picked up rusty daggers - the mortality rate will likely be over 75%", to "your skills and luck are out of the ordinary, but death could still come at any moment", to "you are the heroes of legend; you WILL fulfill your destiny and save the world, but what happens on the way could change".

I wouldn't want to play that style exclusively, but I also wouldn't want to lose it, and 4E seems to have less support for it than previous editions.
Last edited by Ice9 on Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by K »

The thing is, there really is a style of play that Munchkin the card game mocks, but it really is fun.

You see, people play video games now where you aren't an 't adventurer, but you are a hero.

Heroes don't lose. Heroes are the biggest, baddest guy in the story. Heroes get the girl(or boy, or boys and girls, or....whatever). Heroes win the story and then then live out the rest of their lives having fat babies and reigning over a peaceful land. Heroes have magic swords with special names that they pick up as boys and they use them their whole lives.

Adventurers, on the other hand, are just talented guys. They kill monsters, but they run away from some monsters. They sometimes get the girl, but more often than not the princess doesn't marry them at the end of the adventure but elopes with a barbarian prince. When the threat is over, they go back to their favorite inn and tell outrageous lies about how they saved the world using a spoon and and old sock and they get fat and lazy. Sometime a threat comes back and they get into a training montage and lose the weight and go fight some other monster to get enough money to save some orphans. More often than not they end up petrified by a basilisk.

And that's the difference. Older editions of DnD assumed that you'd die a few times over the course of the adventure, so coming back from the dead was easy. They assumed you'd lose all your armor and weapons to rust monsters so you'd better not able to invest too many character resources in specializing in any one weapon or fighting style. Heck, the novels that Vancian spellcasting comes from have the main character losing his magical equipment with every adventure. Sometimes, you really did pull a card from a magic deck and get awesome and the rest of the party died and that was it.

New editions want people to be heroes. Now, for a cooperative storytelling game that tends to mean that every adventure someone has to wear the hero hat and hopefully it's not the same guy every time. Unfortunately, that rarely works out.
Draco_Argentum
Duke
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Draco_Argentum »

That guy is an asshat. Going over the bold.

Rust monsters are a hard limit to the weapon of power trope. Its a common enough trope in the source material and the rust monster just wrecks it. Not that TGD has also been home to this complaint.

Illusion of choice. Yes 4e is bull. That doesn't make 2e awesome just because you got nearly no choice. They are both crap and Mr Rose Tinted is full of it.

Common sense is not common. I submit every retarded thread on WotC ever as evidence. People will disagree on supposedly common sense issues, sometimes with cause, sometimes without.

Extreme examples of an inherently dysfunctional hobby? Hes not talking about the normal threads you'll find about the net anymore. Hes talking about us, the minority that analyses the game in detail. The people who post The Wish and the Word. In short he wants people to think less so they find less holes.




His only valid bold point is designer worship.

In short this guy is exactly the sort who used to complain about any attempt to dissect the rules in 3e. Ask about balance = "bad player". Propose a fix to close a loophole = "taking DM's authority" or "only a munchkin would try that anyway". He is anti-thought and pro-ignorance. He can go fuck off, preferably dieing soon after.
Roy
Prince
Posts: 2772
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:53 pm

Post by Roy »

Well, let's face it. The Rust Monster exists for the sole purpose of allowing the DM to randomly and arbitrarily screw someone. Most likely the Fighter, who really doesn't need any more nerfs. Naturally, it gets ignored a lot.

I don't really have anything to say about the rest of that.
User avatar
virgil
King
Posts: 6339
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by virgil »

I can see the rust monster's use in campaigns that follow a model not unlike Vance's Cugel Saga, as mentioned by K. That guy comes upon treasure after treasure, both magical and non, and is lucky to keep it past his first adventure. The only time something stays in his possession is when it has direct influence with the campaign arc, in which case it's gone at the end of the campaign arc.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

The tyranny of fun guy was making the same damn point about 3e and it was crap then and it's crap now. The guy is straight up wrong. There is a slider between Super Heroes (where characters take a long time to write up and they have a strong tendency to survive through the adventures and keep their signature stuff throughout), and Investigators (where characters are quick to make and are frequently killed or unrecognizably changed, such that you end up playing essentially or actually new characters all the time). Both have advantages and disadvantages, and both are appropriate for different games at different times.

Saying that the thing that is wrong with 3e or 4e or whatever is that it moves that slider over towards Super Heroes and away from the Investigator model is to miss the entire point of game design on every level simultaneously. The problem is not where you set that slider, that actually can't be the problem. You could have a problem where the slider ends up not being where you tried to put it, or you could have a problem where the game is inconsistent on how the slider applies to different characters, but a priori the placement of the slider is simply an arbitrary choice.

And so if your complaint is that "They put the slider in the wrong place!" then you personally are a know-nothing cry baby, like the originally quoted person. There's lots wrong with 3e and even more wrong with 4e, but the original quotes show no understanding at all of what any of it actually is.

-Username17
baduin
Master
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 3:12 pm

Post by baduin »

As long as there are levels in D&D, it is meaningless to talk about it being "too easy" or "too difficult". There are always more powerful and less powerful enemies. You can always play an adventure designed for two levels lower or two levels highter.

The only exception would be "Tomb of Horrors" Adventures, with Spheres of Annihilation put in strange places. But it can be done in D&D 3.5 as well.

Rust Monster in no way invalidates weapons of power.

http://dndsrd.net/magicItemsICA.html
Major artifacts are unique items—only one of each such item exists. These are the most potent of magic items, capable of altering the balance of a campaign.

Unlike all other magic items, major artifacts are not easily destroyed. Each should have only a single, specific means of destruction
The problem with the Rust Monster is the fact that the fighters are wholly dependent on their gear, and that gear comes out of Wealth By Level table. If the figher could fight effectively with any sword and without armor at all, and magical swords and armor could be easily replaced without any long term consequences, the rust monster would be a good joke and interesting complication.

But Wealth By Level and Rust Monster in the same game - it is an example of bad design.
"Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat."
RandomCasualty2
Prince
Posts: 3295
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:22 pm

Post by RandomCasualty2 »

K wrote: New editions want people to be heroes. Now, for a cooperative storytelling game that tends to mean that every adventure someone has to wear the hero hat and hopefully it's not the same guy every time. Unfortunately, that rarely works out.
Actually that's remarkably easy to do. It just involves that you specialize each class against a type of creature. The way clerics are specialized against undead, you specialize rogues against humanoids, fighters against beasts, and wizards against magical stuff. Then each adventure (assuming the DM diversifies the opposition) someone else gets to wear the hero hat.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bigode
Duke
Posts: 2246
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Bigode »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Actually that's remarkably easy to do. It just involves that you specialize each class against a type of creature. The way clerics are specialized against undead, you specialize rogues against humanoids, fighters against beasts, and wizards against magical stuff. Then each adventure (assuming the DM diversifies the opposition) someone else gets to wear the hero hat.
Except that it's quite hard to have that not mean other players' time sucking at each time. The opposite - having the baton passes being done multiple times per session - might well mean cookie-cutter adventures. The ideal would be kick anti-creature specialization in the balls as much as possible.
Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.
Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)
brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!
LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

RC wrote:Actually that's remarkably easy to do. It just involves that you specialize each class against a type of creature. The way clerics are specialized against undead, you specialize rogues against humanoids, fighters against beasts, and wizards against magical stuff. Then each adventure (assuming the DM diversifies the opposition) someone else gets to wear the hero hat.
Holy fuck. No.

Your basic premise - that having a built-in focus for what opposition characters inherently shine against is a simple and effective way to get characters playing the same game even in the face of disparate player skill - is very true. Indeed, in such a circumstance you have the ability to modulate the effectiveness of characters on the fly just by throwing additional enemies at the team that one or more otherwise underperforming characters are inherently strong against (or vice versa). This is very true, and is an important consideration of game design.

Your actual example however could not have been farther from the mark had it been intentionally thrown orthoganally to the target. Wizards can't specialize in fighting "magic stuff" because they are "magic stuff." If it requires a magic user to bring down a magic user properly, then why the fucking hell is anyone else even here? Seriously, the magic user can just walk out there and be strong against god damned everything because apparently everyone else has a relative weakness taking down enemies that are just like he is.

There are two models of role protection: the Rock Paper Scissors model and the Shadowrun model. In the Shadowrun model you want a [Blue] character to deal with [Blue] opposition because properly dealing with a problem in the manner that the game determines optimal requires understanding, finesse, and taking things out on their terms. But that only works because a [Red] character inherently and automatically evades large swathes of [Blue] opposition. Because it is assumed that you want to defeat every part of the target rather than merely running through or escaping, having a [Blue] character on hand to not automatically bypass and be bypassed by [Blue] defenses is key. In the RPS model, different characters are good against different stuff. But that only works because the things that each character is good against are actually different. If any character is defined as being good against their own type the entire system breaks down completely. The answer to Paper can't be "Paper" because if it is then Scissors suck.

The idea that Wizards should specialize in fighting "magic stuff" is common, but it is absolutely hands down the single worst thing in D&D groupthink.

-Username17
User avatar
Maxus
Overlord
Posts: 7645
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Maxus »

FrankTrollman wrote:
RC wrote:Actually that's remarkably easy to do. It just involves that you specialize each class against a type of creature. The way clerics are specialized against undead, you specialize rogues against humanoids, fighters against beasts, and wizards against magical stuff. Then each adventure (assuming the DM diversifies the opposition) someone else gets to wear the hero hat.
Holy fuck. No.

Your basic premise - that having a built-in focus for what opposition characters inherently shine against is a simple and effective way to get characters playing the same game even in the face of disparate player skill - is very true. Indeed, in such a circumstance you have the ability to modulate the effectiveness of characters on the fly just by throwing additional enemies at the team that one or more otherwise underperforming characters are inherently strong against (or vice versa). This is very true, and is an important consideration of game design.

Your actual example however could not have been farther from the mark had it been intentionally thrown orthoganally to the target. Wizards can't specialize in fighting "magic stuff" because they are "magic stuff." If it requires a magic user to bring down a magic user properly, then why the fucking hell is anyone else even here? Seriously, the magic user can just walk out there and be strong against god damned everything because apparently everyone else has a relative weakness taking down enemies that are just like he is.

There are two models of role protection: the Rock Paper Scissors model and the Shadowrun model. In the Shadowrun model you want a [Blue] character to deal with [Blue] opposition because properly dealing with a problem in the manner that the game determines optimal requires understanding, finesse, and taking things out on their terms. But that only works because a [Red] character inherently and automatically evades large swathes of [Blue] opposition. Because it is assumed that you want to defeat every part of the target rather than merely running through or escaping, having a [Blue] character on hand to not automatically bypass and be bypassed by [Blue] defenses is key. In the RPS model, different characters are good against different stuff. But that only works because the things that each character is good against are actually different. If any character is defined as being good against their own type the entire system breaks down completely. The answer to Paper can't be "Paper" because if it is then Scissors suck.

The idea that Wizards should specialize in fighting "magic stuff" is common, but it is absolutely hands down the single worst thing in D&D groupthink.

-Username17
Well, okay. But we've got more than three types of characters, so we're looking at Pokemon Type Chart, of a greater or lesser degree of complexity.
Last edited by Maxus on Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by K »

I don't actually think that role protection is even possible in a tabletop game.

I mean, people can point to a Rogue being unable to kill an undead or construct, but the Rogue can bypass those same things with Hide. A magic user might not have the right spell for a puzzle monster, but if he can teleport or put up a wall of stone then he doesn't need to be able to kill it. At the end of the day, a well played Commoner with level-appropriate skills and feats can just be the MVP of the party if he figures out that collapsing the cave lair of the Lich-King is just as good as killing it and he passes his UMD check on a scroll of transmute rock to mud.

I mean, only the most Pokemon-type games have pure role protection where killing the enemy Pokemon is the only way to advance the plot or "win". 4e was deliberately created to avoid all the tabletop RPG problems where even one ability to affect the setting can become asymmetric or off-brand power, and I think most people accept that the payoff was not worth the price.
User avatar
Orion
Prince
Posts: 3756
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Orion »

What if "wizards" aren't part of "magic stuff"?

Like, team monster has spirits and demons and shit that are resistant to swords but vulnerable to spells. Wizards, on the other hand, are fleshy mortals and are vulnerable to swords but resistant to spells.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13882
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

Then it's RPS again - Magic Man kills Spooky Thing, Spooky Thing kills Sword Guy and Sword Guy kills Magic Man.

And with a kabillion different types, you just whip out the updated RPS chart - the one with "Tree beats Dragon" and all that.
RandomCasualty2
Prince
Posts: 3295
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:22 pm

Post by RandomCasualty2 »

FrankTrollman wrote: Your actual example however could not have been farther from the mark had it been intentionally thrown orthoganally to the target. Wizards can't specialize in fighting "magic stuff" because they are "magic stuff." If it requires a magic user to bring down a magic user properly, then why the fucking hell is anyone else even here? Seriously, the magic user can just walk out there and be strong against god damned everything because apparently everyone else has a relative weakness taking down enemies that are just like he is.
Well no. A wizard would be considered a humanoid, which gets beaten by rogues. A wizard himself isn't a magical creature, he's just a man (unless he's a lich, then he's undead). "magic stuff" would be things like elementals, constructs, will'o'wisps, etc.

And we're not talking about absolutes here. You don't need a cleric to beat undead, but it certainly helps. The fighter is still hacking zombies and everything, but if you want the powers that are best against undead, then you want your cleric. Similarly, a rogue can really stab the fuck out of humanoids, a warrior would be great at slaying dragons and hydras and a wizard is your man if you're going against a fire elemental. But just because those classes are excelling doesn't mean that the other classes are totally powerless.
Caedrus
Knight-Baron
Posts: 728
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Caedrus »

K wrote:I don't actually think that role protection is even possible in a tabletop game.

I mean, people can point to a Rogue being unable to kill an undead or construct, but the Rogue can bypass those same things with Hide. A magic user might not have the right spell for a puzzle monster, but if he can teleport or put up a wall of stone then he doesn't need to be able to kill it. At the end of the day, a well played Commoner with level-appropriate skills and feats can just be the MVP of the party if he figures out that collapsing the cave lair of the Lich-King is just as good as killing it and he passes his UMD check on a scroll of transmute rock to mud.

I mean, only the most Pokemon-type games have pure role protection where killing the enemy Pokemon is the only way to advance the plot or "win". 4e was deliberately created to avoid all the tabletop RPG problems where even one ability to affect the setting can become asymmetric or off-brand power, and I think most people accept that the payoff was not worth the price.
Absolutely. I don't believe in role protection at all. I'd much rather have everything be Broad classes like the Wizard, with some sort of encouragement given over to specialization to offset the versatility vs specialization opportunity cost, and then let your way of approaching problems proceed naturally from your build choices.
Bigode wrote:Except that it's quite hard to have that not mean other players' time sucking at each time. The opposite - having the baton passes being done multiple times per session - might well mean cookie-cutter adventures. The ideal would be kick anti-creature specialization in the balls as much as possible.
As I mentioned in the Ranger thread, I would want to get rid of creature specialization *at least* in the form of things like "+X vs type X" as a main class feature.

I'm still okay with Bane weapons though, because it's totally okay for expendable stuff to only be only situationally good. I just don't like for *entire characters* to have to only situationally be worth bringing to the table.

I say a person should generally get a chance to shine, if not necessarily as bright as everyone else all the time, when it's *their turn.* Some people might shine brighter in a few situations, but ultimately people aren't being left out to the point where someone just wants to wander off from the table to find something where they can actually do something.
Last edited by Caedrus on Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Judging__Eagle
Prince
Posts: 4671
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

Post by Judging__Eagle »

As I mentioned in the Ranger thread, I would want to get rid of creature specialization *at least* in the form of things like "+X vs type X" as a main class feature.
Which was a concern that I had myself and wasn't sure how to resolve. One idea was to have a class level + int or wis mod check against the creatures CR+10.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.

While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Post by JonSetanta »

K wrote:I don't actually think that role protection is even possible in a tabletop game.

I mean, people can point to a Rogue being unable to kill an undead or construct, but the Rogue can bypass those same things with Hide. A magic user might not have the right spell for a puzzle monster, but if he can teleport or put up a wall of stone then he doesn't need to be able to kill it. At the end of the day, a well played Commoner with level-appropriate skills and feats can just be the MVP of the party if he figures out that collapsing the cave lair of the Lich-King is just as good as killing it and he passes his UMD check on a scroll of transmute rock to mud.
Classless system. It's there, lurking, under the surface of all fixed party-archetype RPGs.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Post Reply