Are battle clerics really that inferior to laser clerics?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:56 pm

Because that's what it looks like to me right now.

I think a battle cleric might get some mileage out of polearm gamble and staying close to a fighter. Fighter, not paladin, unless paladin is a Champion of Order or Warpriest and even then.

Anyway, while we're on the subjects... fighters and warpriests. What the hell. Do their opportunity attacks/immediate interrupts stack or what?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:28 pm

The Beat Cleric begins and ends with Righteous Brand. For practical purposes you kind of have to spend a feat to "multiclass" into taking a Paragon tier off another class list. But Righteous Brand is nuts.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:23 pm

Which paragon tier do you recommend, Frank?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:17 am

Off the top of my head, I would suggest going Pit Fighter. It adds your Wisdom Modifier to all your damage, which puts you squarely into the bracket enjoyed by "strikers" while still adding ridiculous bonuses to the attack rolls of your allies.

-Username17

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:06 pm

Is there some reason you couldn't make a STR and WIS beat cleric build? I mean, the benefits of CHA are easy enough to live without, especially when one can choose STR and WIS powers.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:05 pm

Boolean wrote:Is there some reason you couldn't make a STR and WIS beat cleric build? I mean, the benefits of CHA are easy enough to live without, especially when one can choose STR and WIS powers.

That's the beat cleric in a nutshell.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:27 pm

Well, here are a couple of problems I have with the beat cleric build:

1) Clerics don't get abilities that help them protect themselves. If you're up front, this means pulling attention off of a paladin or fighter.

2) Getting all up in the enemy's grill compromises your healing, as in you're using up a greater portion of the party's resources to keep your ass out of the fryer.

If someone can give me a good solution for these problems, I'll try writing up a razor cleric build.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:57 pm

Well in looking at frank's suggested build, I just noticed that Divine Power, Consecrated Ground and other regenerating powers have the *healing* keyword - and "regeneration is a special form of healing", so Healer's Lore applies. If you're willing to sink a second multiclass feat, you can also pick up boundless endurance (and/or the crappier unyielding avalanche) Cycle these with Veteran's Armor or whatever you can find and by the time that wisdom bonus to damage kicks in, you can also be adding it that same the HP you regen each round for nearly all day long. Season with Holy Wrath and Divine Regeneration if you are so inclined.

Not awesome by itself, but a nice add on top of the Righteous Brand + Wis to attacks chassis.

To really make it sing, you want to be a Longtooth Shifter. who get both the attribute adds you want and a racial power that give regen as an Encounter power.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:01 pm

Josh, your post got cut off.

Anyone, I don't agree with Veteran's Armor so much personally. It takes an action point and a daily item use and I think there are better item dailies out there along with better items to boot. Agile Armor is gold for anyone.

YMMV.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:10 pm

Fixed post.

While you may be right about Veteran's armor, Agile armor only matters if you have a dex bonus, and that's probably not happening until 21st level on this cleric.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:12 pm

While you may be right about Veteran's armor, Agile armor only matters if you have a dex bonus, and that's probably not happening until 21st level on this cleric.

The razor cleric I may or may not post in a little bit needs a 15 dex score, though, so he might benefit from it.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:20 pm

While the healer's lore regeneration deal can be slapped on any cleric build fairly easily, I'm thinking that the Razor Cleric build is a different build than the Righteous Brand Pit Fighter, who operates very simply "attack with at will Strength Power whenever possible, add Wisdom to Damage - fall back on Wisdom based powers for ranged attacks"

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:43 pm

Anyway, like I promised, a Razor Cleric build. I'm not putting everything about this character up here. If it's mandatory, it's not going in. Only choices do.

Elven Cleric / Swordmaster

Initial Stat Array: STR: 16 DEX: 15 CON: 11 WIS: 18 INT: 8 CHA: 10
Level 16 Stat Array: STR: 20 DEX: 16 CON: 12 WIS: 22 INT: 9 CHA: 11

1: Super Weapon Proficiency (Triple-Headed Flail) --> Retrain to Rapier at level 11
2: Student of the Sword (One-Handed Weapons)
4: Novice Power (Rain of Blows)
6: Righteous Wrath of Tempus
8: Quick Draw
10: Weapon Focus: Light Blades
12: Lasting Frost
14: Light Blade Precision
16: Fighter: Daily --> Unyielding Avalanche

Powers:
At-Will: Righteous Brand (1), Sacred Flame (1)
Encounter: Healing Strike (1), Rain of Blows (3), Strengthen the Faithful (7), Precision Cut (11), Arc of the Righteous (13-- replaces Healing Strike)
Daily: Guardian of Faith (1), Consecrated Ground (5), Divine Power (9), Unyielding Avalanche [FTR 15-- replaces Seal of Warding (15

-- Replaces Guardian of Faith)]
Utility: Cure Light Wounds (2), Bastion of Health (6), Knights of Unyielding Valor (10), Fantastic Flourish (12) Astral Shield (16)

Equipment: Note that the 4th Edition magical equipment handing-outing is completely fucked for pre-made characters. This is one of the rare instances in the D&D rules in any edition that actually favor organic characters. Whatever, you want a Bloodclaw Rapier, Agile Chainmail, Iron Bands of Mighty Striking (Adventurer's Vault), a couple of Power Stones, Frost Gloves, and Boots of Eagerness.

Save up for a Symbol of Sacrifice, those are gar. In the later levels, you'll want to stock up on potions of vitality, those things kick ass once you don't care about the costs anymore.

Anyway, as far as tactics go, it's pretty simple. Rain of Blows is your main attack. Since you'll be on the frontlines as well, give your fellow defender a standing order to knock enemies unconscious instead of killing them. When you need to replenish your Rain of Blows power, coup de grace a fallen foe, preferably with your Crescendo Sword power at level 20. If you can't coup de grace anyone, use the Righteous Wrath of Tempus and try again. If you REALLY need an edge, use one of your Power Stones. If you STILL need an edge, you can intentionally miss with your Crescendo Sword power. If you STILL need an edge, then you're just borked for now. Stick to Righteous Brand and just heal as normal.

Note that it might be a very good idea to open with Consecrated Ground or Divine Power when you need to lay down the long-term ass-whupping.

As far as expansion options go, depending on how much you want to gamble you can replace Unyielding Avalanche with Strike of the Watchful guard. If you have the feats to spare, Boundless Endurance may be a good utility feat for you as well.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:59 am

Carp.

The exact wording on Healer's lore says "cleric powers" so stacking wisdom on regen is not going to work for the fighter cross-class regen nor for the longtooth shifter without a bit of convincing the DM.

Diine Power and Consecrated ground are still good to go.

But if you can get your DM to okay it for just "powers" you then pick up some Exalted Armor and a Symbol of Life - which have powers that add to your other healing while the healing keyword themselves for double-dipping goodness.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:00 am

You know, I'm just going to keep pimping this build until I get some comments on it so you might as well just humor me. Even if it's a 'no one cares about your retro-retardo shaggy dog build'.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:41 am

It's probably good, insofar as you can have good things in 4E. It looks sound enough, but I couldn't really comment. I just lost interest in the edition, so can't be arsed looking through all of the books book for alternate options and suggested improvements.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:19 pm

Koumei wrote:I just lost interest in the edition, so can't be arsed looking through all of the books book for alternate options and suggested improvements.

Yeah, I really have no idea what any of that shit does.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:29 pm

Stuff that means nothing to me aside [and nothing is going to persuade me to pick up the FR books, so I guess it will remain that way]

the biggest problem I have with 4e classes is that the strength-based melee classes get smacked with a no win situation: they can either lower their attack stat, in which case they suck; or they keep their CON at the minimum, which means less hp, less healing, and less effective healing.

But at the basics, putting resources into stats in the same save category is so minding-numbingly stupid in a lot of ways (its redundant regarding the major benefit you get from having a high stat, and you have less to put into stats for other defenses).

I think the roots are a major problem in the stat redesign and the fundamental class design:

If a stat is your attack stat, it matters more than anything else.
However, Con gives you a noticeable benefit. Str doesn't. [and considering a 10 str guy can wander around with plate mail, a couple weapons and a shield and not be encumbered in anyway at all, I really mean that]

Similarly, Dex gives an Init bonus, Int gives you... nothing at all.

Wis and Cha are pretty much equal in their non-use, so it doesn't matter which you use. However, both the divine classes got utterly boned by class design that uses both simultaneously. They either have to give up class abilities, or make shitty characters by bumping both stats. Its a fail either way. In time it probably won't matter, as WotC will put out more and more garbage so that they're really sacrificing nothing at all by blowing off at stat, but out of the book, clerics and paladins are definitely handicapped, though laser clerics can get by even now with Wis/Con/Dex and saying fuck you to anything that requires Cha or Str.

I've got to say that I don't like a point buy system that almost requires 18/13/13/10/10/8 or 18/14/11/10/10/8 unless you have a very specific exploit in mind, and you're willing to suffer through multiple levels of suck to get it.

As an aside, armor training is the biggest trap I've ever seen in a D&D game. Bumping multiple stats up to the point that you can actually take the damn things is going to cripple 95% of character builds. Don't raise your fighter's CON to that degree. Just accept the fact that you'll have a slightly lower AC, in exchange for better Ref and Wil defenses.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:40 pm

Voss wrote:However, Con gives you a noticeable benefit. Str doesn't.

Well, Str helps your basic melee attacks, including opportunity attacks. That's about as important as a minor hitpoint boost. Until you get to Paragon tier, anyway.

Voss wrote:Similarly, Dex gives an Init bonus, Int gives you... nothing at all.

Yep. Dex also gives you ranged basic attacks.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:05 pm

hmmm. I almost shrugged off opportunity atttacks, but I'm not sure how often they really come up. With intelligent opponents, they almost shouldn't, but it is interesting that several classes (rogues, charisma paladins) get screwed by this. Of course, half the classes don't care and would be stupid to invest the kind of cash they need in a melee weapon just for opportunity attacks.

I did sit down and work out the difference between a dwarf fighter and human fighter (dwarf going for 16/16/13/10/15/8 and human going for 20/10/13/10/13/8). The human is at +2 attack and damage forever, has the same or better (fort) defenses forever except for AC where the dwarf can have +1 AC for burning a feat on plate mail), the only thing the dwarf really gets is 6 extra hit points, 3 extra surges and a usable second wind. And the human's extra feat can reduce that to 1 extra hp or 1 extra surge.

Whee. Maybe Con really is the crap stat of the two.

Which reminds me of a class imbalance issue I left out:
most of the 8 classes can get away with 1 weapon (or implement). Melee rangers, paladins (encounter powers are weapon based, daily powers are often implement based), beatstick clerics (same reason), all get fucked royally in this area. Keeping a second item level appropriate really guts the character's wealth. The rest of the party can have a bagful of Resist 10 belts while you struggle to keep your second item on the RNG.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:53 pm

I did sit down and work out the difference between a dwarf fighter and human fighter (dwarf going for 16/16/13/10/15/8 and human going for 20/10/13/10/13/. The human is at +2 attack and damage forever, has the same or better (fort) defenses forever except for AC where the dwarf can have +1 AC for burning a feat on plate mail), the only thing the dwarf really gets is 6 extra hit points, 3 extra surges and a usable second wind. And the human's extra feat can reduce that to 1 extra hp or 1 extra surge.

Do not count out the dwarf's ability to access a second wind on the fly. Frankly? A party only lasts as long as its weakest link and it's very likely that the 'defenders' will have more than enough healing surges to get through the day. The biggest problem they have is accessing the healing surges on their lonesome.

Also, I disagree with your assessment of 18 being better than two 16s. Some very powerful builds need the two 16s more than the 18, because they have access to powers or abilities that combo off of a secondary stat.

For example, an Iron Vanguard Hammer Dwarf DEFINITELY wants that extra 16 for constitution. Not for the healing surges so much, but because the constitution gives them a noticable amount of extra healing per minion they drop, extra damage every time they push or drop prone a foe, and gives them anywhere from 4-9 damage on a missed hit.

Similarly, a scimitar Stormwalker ranger (bugbear if you can get it, though elf works fine too) wants the two 16s, because they have class abilities that add extra dexterity damage. If they're using Scimitar Dance, that's a guaranteed 3x dexterity damage on a foe they choose per round. But they don't want to put everything they have into dexterity with the 18, because most of their melee powers still use strength to attack.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:10 pm

most of the 8 classes can get away with 1 weapon (or implement). Melee rangers, paladins (encounter powers are weapon based, daily powers are often implement based), beatstick clerics (same reason), all get fucked royally in this area. Keeping a second item level appropriate really guts the character's wealth. The rest of the party can have a bagful of Resist 10 belts while you struggle to keep your second item on the RNG.

You don't need to. There's really no such thing as level-appropriate items in 4th Edition. Because daily-use items are at a premium, this renders like 90% of all magical unusable only because there's something better around the corner.

You want magical items that are encounter-based, consumables, healing-surge activated, or always-on. There is absolutely no guarantee that the most useful of these items will be anywhere near your level. For example, boots of eagerness give you a once-per-encounter extra move action. They're level 8. So you're going to be using the hell out of them. It's very possible that these might be the best magical boots you're ever going to get.

And since wealth in 4th edition is woefully quadratic, you pretty much end up getting it for free.

Understand this? The wealth-by-level rules screw pre-generated players hardcore because it assumes you'll get rid of items 3 or more levels lower than you. Which is just idiotic. If your character actually goes through five levels of advancement they will have enough level appropriate items, even if their class requires extra swag to function. Because every class wants as many non-daily items they can jam onto their body, this works out in the end. The laser cleric doesn't need a weapon. But they want one anyway. A beat cleric doesn't have room in typical wealth-by-level assumptions for a Symbol of Life or a Symbol of Sacrifice. But that's retarded, beause those things are always useful no matter what level you are. And it gives people a screwy impression of equipment balance.

So, what does this mean? Well, as long as you're keeping your weapon/implement pluses up to snuff then you should be good to go. The only classes that really get screwed by this arrangement are rangers (only if you don't have Adventurer's Vault, as the screwy double-weapon rules mean that they negate the weaknesses of having to pimp out two weapons), beat clerics, and any kind of paladin.

Does this mean that the equipment rules and assumptions are good? Fuck no. But does it mean that certain classes will get screwed more than others? A yes, but the asspains will level off after a few levels, like real life ass-sexing.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:20 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Also, I disagree with your assessment of 18 being better than two 16s. Some very powerful builds need the two 16s more than the 18, because they have access to powers or abilities that combo off of a secondary stat.

True - Orb Wizards want a pair of 16s, so that they can hit & damage as well as penalising saves.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote: You want magical items that are encounter-based, consumables, healing-surge activated, or always-on. There is absolutely no guarantee that the most useful of these items will be anywhere near your level. For example, boots of eagerness give you a once-per-encounter extra move action. They're level 8. So you're going to be using the hell out of them. It's very possible that these might be the best magical boots you're ever going to get.

Yeah the 4E treasure and magic item system is pretty horrible. A lot of low level items are pretty much made of awesome.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:18 pm

When I say level appropriate items, I mean the plus items, solely. Falling off that train is unnecessary and stupid. The other items seem actively better at lower levels. The minor bonuses you get for shelling out an extra 1,000,000 gp aren't relevant.

I'm also not talking about 18 vs 2 16s, but a 20 (with racial bonuses) vs 2 16s. The +2/+2 makes an explosive difference. There are a few builds that can finesse something out of the extra number, but they're few and far between with the PH (which is all I have). You can get a 14 in whatever secondary stat and get almost as much of the secondary benefit, and not suck with your attacks.

Plus I've yet to see a 4e 'power' build thats really much stronger than everything else. The numbers tweak, the never explode.

The closest I've seen is in an article on an eladrin city up in dragon (Mithsomething or other). There are 6 fighter powers that add dex mod to the attack roll. You still don't want to gimp your strength... 16/16 would give a +6 to hit, while 20/14 would give +7. The 20 still wins, and does more damage as well. Thats the same problem with all of these 'add other stat mod' powers. Since you're reducing your primary stat to get the secondary up, your losing points to attack and damage and only gaining one of the two. That isn't a win.