The iconic spells of 5-9, or what they should be.

[K]

I'm coming up with ability lists and using the 30 years of DnD as inspiration, but for the life of me I can't find a real difference between what spell levels 5-9 do that 1-4 simply do less well. I mean, I can look at 3rd level and say "here is where you get your first big AoE damage", but looking at the higher spell levels it just looks like they fall apart into redundancy.

There are a few things that look good like: 9th level gets you city-destroying potential like storm of vengeance.

Any opinions?

[virgil]

Barring combat-range dimension door planar travel, teleportation, and ressurection begin at 5th level; at least for 3E. I haven't touched 2E in almost a decade, so I don't know the arrangement for them.

Wish is an iconic 9th level spell, throughout the editions to my knowledge. Limited Wish is more the copycat trying to give you something before you get to end-game levels, rather than the other way around (bigger numbers).

That's off the top of my head, at least.

[K]

Barring combat-range dimension door planar travel, teleportation, and ressurection begin at 5th level; at least for 3E. I haven't touched 2E in almost a decade, so I don't know the arrangement for them.

Wish is an iconic 9th level spell, throughout the editions to my knowledge. Limited Wish is more the copycat trying to give you something before you get to end-game levels, rather than the other way around (bigger numbers).

That's off the top of my head, at least.

Well, D-door is 4th level and becomes Teleport at 5th. Planar travel is much like Rope Trick when it is not used as an arbitrary adventure prerequisite. The Wishes are just "everything, but better."

Raise Dead is good, but I don't think it's good enough to define a level.

[virgil]

I think the plane shift = rope trick++ is kinda stretching it, especially since that means fireball is a glorified burning hands.

I would group teleportation/planar travel in one lump for the 5th level iconic though, the long-distance travel, which you don't use dimension door for (more for getting out of grapples, past walls, etc).

While broken in 3E, calling spells don't really appear until 5th level (the planar binding series being the major ones), and sees a use fairly different than the summon monster series.

Anti-magic field is another spell I don't see in iconic D&D below its spell level. Most of the mass buffs don't occur until 6th level, I believe. Oh, then there's time stop, unless you consider that haste++.

I don't know of any low-level, long-term containment spells (imprisonment, trap the soul, binding, etc).

[name_here]

Mass buffs are actually single target buffs, but better.

[K]

I think the plane shift = rope trick++ is kinda stretching it, especially since that means fireball is a glorified burning hands.

Well, it's extreme long range and extreme AoE, os I figure it stands alone.

I would group teleportation/planar travel in one lump for the 5th level iconic though, the long-distance travel, which you don't use dimension door for (more for getting out of grapples, past walls, etc).

As travel powers they are really just pre-regs for adventures as opposed to game-changing effects.

While broken in 3E, calling spells don't really appear until 5th level (the planar binding series being the major ones), and sees a use fairly different than the summon monster series.

They are used a little differently, but are they different enough?

Anti-magic field is another spell I don't see in iconic D&D below its spell level. Most of the mass buffs don't occur until 6th level, I believe. Oh, then there's time stop, unless you consider that haste++.

Minor Globe of Invulnerability is "AMF-lite". And "Yes, I'd rank Timestop as Haste ++" or a better "get more actions" spell.

I don't know of any low-level, long-term containment spells (imprisonment, trap the soul, binding, etc).

Sepia Snake Sigil lasts days and keeps the person from aging, so walking into a cave every few days and putting another one on a wall is pretty effective long-term storage.

[virgil]

Does it matter if teleportation/planar travel is a pre-req for some adventures? It remains an iconic spell in D&D that becomes available at 5th+ spell level, even if it's a way to personally empower players with their movement rather than having the DM handwave convenient portals all over the place.

Calling spells can be used differently enough, but DM's are infamous for their stealth-nerfs and many players aren't that imaginative.

As for Minor Globe, how much of it is a lower-level spell seeing representation in upper level using bigger numbers, and how much of it is the reverse? I could easily make a 1st level spell that's close range, 5' burst, and does half caster level in d6 (cap of 5d6, call it fireburst or somesuch) and then call fireball the copycat with bigger numbers.

Sepia Snake Sigil is more of a trap spell than an offensive containment, especially since it's going to be difficult to get the victim to actually read the sigil after the first time.

[K]

Does it matter if teleportation/planar travel is a pre-req for some adventures? It remains an iconic spell in D&D that becomes available at 5th+ spell level, even if it's a way to personally empower players with their movement rather than having the DM handwave convenient portals all over the place.

I was thinking more combat stuff, but you've convinced me.

Calling spells can be used differently enough, but DM's are infamous for their stealth-nerfs and many players aren't that imaginative.

That's kind of my point. I mean, potentially they are very powerful, but I can't say I've actually even heard of someone using them to their potential.

As for Minor Globe, how much of it is a lower-level spell seeing representation in upper level using bigger numbers, and how much of it is the reverse? I could easily make a 1st level spell that's close range, 5' burst, and does half caster level in d6 (cap of 5d6, call it fireburst or somesuch) and then call fireball the copycat with bigger numbers.

Well, Minor Globe is the same as AMF, just weaker. It is personal, blocks spells, and trades the fact that you can use higher spells for the fact it won't helps vs Supernaturals and magic items.

A fireburst spell in your sample doesn't share the key traits of fireball which is the extreme range and ability to hit six or seven combatants.

I mean, if you has a 1st level Combust spell that had extreme range and did 1d6 fire +1/level (max 10) to everyone in a 40' sphere, that would have all the key traits of fireball but be weaker.

Sepia Snake Sigil is more of a trap spell than an offensive containment, especially since it's going to be difficult to get the victim to actually read the sigil after the first time.

Well, all of those spells are traps in the important ways. It's just that the 8th level ones are nearly permanent and the sigil lasts a few days.

[virgil]

I've attempted to use calling spells for guards, long distance scouts, in-your-face negotiations (I will have an audience with that baatorian bureaucrat ), manual labour (short-term torch factory), etc. My personal problem has been the DM being a jerk and not being terribly keen on me using them for anything but having a single mercenary for fights.

I do need to mess around with PHB to check, but I remember a friend having a similar comment with AE. Once the spells became 5th+ level, they weren't useful for much other than utility and plot-shaping, the lower level versions being his mainstays (which he would use metamagic to get the numbers he needed, basically). This sounds like a similar sentiment to yours.

[JonSetanta]

I'm coming up with ability lists and using the 30 years of DnD as inspiration, but for the life of me I can't find a real difference between what spell levels 5-9 do that 1-4 simply do less well. I mean, I can look at 3rd level and say "here is where you get your first big AoE damage", but looking at the higher spell levels it just looks like they fall apart into redundancy.

There are a few things that look good like: 9th level gets you city-destroying potential like storm of vengeance.

Any opinions?

I've had some ideas about this for quite a while but no one has asked until now.
What are you asking for, a level-by-level layout of option types?
A spell level benchmark list?
Or a bunch of things we like spells to do, loosely grouped in to "medium" "high" and "epic" ranges?

[Bigode]

Bringing the fvcking dead back isn't defining?

[erik]

Bringing the fvcking dead back isn't defining?

It's a more advanced subset of "there there, you're all better now".

[Username17]

At the point where you are hand waving away the differences between curing a sword wound and turning a lump of cold meat back into a living swordsman then no, there is no difference between magic of any spell level.

While I personally can't see the difference between Dispel Magic and Greater Dispelling, I think you'd have to be mad to not see the difference between Lesser and Greater Restoration. The same effect again with bigger numbers does not, or at least should not, constitute a new effect such that anyone cares (especially if the original effect already sclaed numerically to any extent). But a curative magic that effects different conditions is every bit as different as a curse effect that causes new conditions.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

I think the plane shift = rope trick++ is kinda stretching it, especially since that means fireball is a glorified burning hands.

Actually plane shift is remarkably worse than rope trick because you've got a large margin for error when you arrive back. If anything teleport is rope trick, plane shift is for the most part useless except as a save or die, or it's a total plot spell.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Why does there have to be nine levels of spells anyway?

Why can't there just be five or six?

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Lago raises a good point.

Nine levels of spells makes it so that you get better at spellcasting more gradually rather than all-at-once. However, iconically, there are probably only 4 power levels to me. Also, you are going to have a hard time coming up with 'different' spells in this context. You want to "get better" at spellcasting, and this means increased numbers, increased ranges, increased effects, increased curing, etc.

I have no problem with:
Dimension Hop -> Dimension Door -> Teleport -> Greater Teleport

Or:
Hide -> Invisibility -> Greater Invisibility

[JonSetanta]

Why does there have to be nine levels of spells anyway?

Why can't there just be five or six?

Splits the benchmarks of power in to finer groups.
You know, the Haves and Have Nots.

With larger splits between, I suppose that would work too. It would be more like watching a Warlock advance since they get benchmarks at 1, 6, 11, and 16.

[ckafrica]

I kind of liked the concept they had in wheel of time RPG where you got a spell and then decided what level to cast it at with increasing effect. Though I imagine this would tend to work better with power points and min lvl requirements to activate advanced effects. Because lots of highlevel spells are just fuck you up with sugar on top compared to a lower level fuck you up.

[RandomCasualty2]

Why does there have to be nine levels of spells anyway?

Why can't there just be five or six?

Really if you have well scaling spells, you probably don't want many spell levels. In fact, you may only want a few spell trees, like feat trees.

You could actually just have one universal Summon Monster spell instead of a chain of 9 of them, if you just made SUmmon monster scale. Of course, doing this entails dropping the Vancian system, something that I'm not sure most people want to do.

[virgil]

You don't need to drop the Vancian system when you do that, you just don't have spell levels for the most part. If anything, it would be easier to create the Vancian effect, because a normal high-level wizard has a metric buttload of spells that work well (glitterdust, grease, mirror image, silent image, extended buffs on whoever looks nice that day, etc...), and then throws in his actual high level spells.

[Surgo]

Magic Jar is a pretty iconic spell, imo.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Really if you have well scaling spells, you probably don't want many spell levels. In fact, you may only want a few spell trees, like feat trees.

You could actually just have one universal Summon Monster spell instead of a chain of 9 of them, if you just made SUmmon monster scale. Of course, doing this entails dropping the Vancian system, something that I'm not sure most people want to do.

Trees might not be the best template for a scaling spell system. They serve only to put hidden level requirements on spells, with the caveat that you get fucked if you don't specialize. Explicit level requirements might work better.

[spasheridan]

Wall spells (fire, earth, ice - then force & forcecage)

Save or DIE spells (save or suck is early, but actual I KILL YOU DEAD WITH A WORD spells don't start until 5th)

Shapechange / polymorph / flesh to stone/ baleful polymorph (she turned me into a newt!)

Permanancy, Contingency

I say raise dead is a watermark that we shouldn't ignore

For pure D&D color spray / prismatic wall are fairly awesome and iconic.

I think your best bet would be to read the 2nd ed players handbook for a good breakdown of iconic spells, 3rd ed really changed the balance by giving clerics nukes and sharing lots of buffs as well as adding interesting-like spells at every level.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

Actually, 5th level has a fair number of iconic spells, but, you're right, most are in the lower-level-spell-but-better categories. But there's no lesser versions of fabricate (unless you count make whole, which it ain't), wall of force, or sending. More recent additions like prying eyes (which is arguably an upgraded wizard eye except, well, not) and telepathic bond (secret communication comes in handy when, like, role-playing and shit) come pretty close though.

6th and up, though, is painful. I only got true seeing and disintegrate at 6th; prismatic spray, reverse gravity, and control weather at 7th; mind blank, maze, and irresistible dance at 8th (probably the three most iconic of spells at this level with permenancy dropped to 5th); and time stop and astral projection (since the rules make that superhumanly different from a mere plane shift at 9th.

[virgil]

I would almost say that prying eyes is an upgraded form of clairaudience/clairvoyance, though I don't have the spell on hand. I would definitely say that telepathic bond is an upgraded form of message.