Does genetic phlebtonium make human achievement pointless?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:38 am

I can't help but watch shows like Naruto and Avatar: The Last Airbender and Star Wars and wonder what's the point of regular humans striving to be strong and powerful if some kid who only trained for the fraction of the time they did completely outclasses them at whatever they've been striving for--not because they trained harder or even had better circumstances than they did, but because they had The Gift and you did.

It's like the Force retcon in the Star Wars prequels. A great Jedi is determined at birth; if you don't have the right genes then you'll never be a good Jedi.

And unfortunately most people seem to prefer that model. I ask, why?

Heath Robinson · Post by **Heath Robinson** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:42 am

Because everyone is sure that they've got The Gift.

koz · Post by **koz** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:50 am

Heath Robinson wrote:Because everyone is sure that they've got The Gift.

Not only that. Fantasy in particular is escapist - it is designed to make us believe that Joe Nobody can take on established awesome people (or The Establishment) single-handed and win, despite not being able to do so in real life. It's feelgood material, which is why people prefer it.

Well, that and the fact that if you see something enough, you start to believe it's good.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:45 am

I think many might prefer an escape fantasy where they don't have to work hard to become powerful. It's easier to imagine yourself being the hero if you're the chosen one and don't have to retcon 20 years of hard training to your bio.

That may also be why magic is so popular for heroes - "I get transported to fantasy world in dire peril, where I discover that I have a big talent for it and kick ass" is more appetizing than "I get transported to fantasy world in dire peril, where I discover that since I am not trained in weapons or martial arts or anything useful at all I am worthless" - you do not even have to imagine a different past/body for yourself to indulge.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:46 am

The whole everyone wants to imagine they have the gift is probably right.

But I should point out that even gifted by destiny dross like the source of Avatar and Jedi powa is in its source material rarely ever presented as enough all on its own.

Time and again destinies mary sue needs to ALSO learn and achieve. Usually demonstrated by facing a skilled character (or challenging situation) NOT imbued by destiny that whoops their ass and then they have to train or use cunning or use some trick they trained earlier to win.

Which they then do because they have skill AND destiny. I mean its often as not MOSTLY destiny, but the skill bit is there to prove they are as good as you if they NEED to be AND THEN BETTER FROM DESTINY.

Probably because while people want to imagine they have "the gift" they also want to imagine they deserved achievements/rewards and could totally get them from hard graft and effort rather than luck if they needed to.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:01 am

So why not cut out the whole superior genes/raped by destiny subtext to it and just say you got hardcore by training really hard?

If you spend almost of your time training, getting good grades, believing in your friends, and never giving up you'll eventually be able to warp reality.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:09 am

Lago, that's Mary Sue in action.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:38 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So why not cut out the whole superior genes/raped by destiny subtext to it and just say you got hardcore by training really hard?

If you spend almost of your time training, getting good grades, believing in your friends, and never giving up you'll eventually be able to warp reality.

Because that's not easy enough for mary-sues. Mind, the jedi spend 16-20 years in training, so they're partly exempt, and they're also counterable if you grab some yalismari (I spelled that wrong.)

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:10 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So why not cut out the whole superior genes/raped by destiny subtext to it and just say you got hardcore by training really hard?

If you spend almost of your time training, getting good grades, believing in your friends, and never giving up you'll eventually be able to warp reality.

Because the audience of such shows are people who don't do any of that, and they want to imagine being the hero without changing their own life and their own past.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:58 pm

I think it's partly a Western concept...lots of Japanese shows, for example, have a hero who isn't all that special but works like a dog and everntually outclasses all the "talented but lazy" characters through grit and determination.

Of course, there are plenty of Japanese Mary Sues...

But, yeah: it's the American Dream to have everything handed to you and validate your Speshulness without actually having to work for it. Heck, we all had those fantasies as kids (yeah, kids... <_< >_>).

It's lazy storytelling, and IMO the best stories feature someone who either

1) Isn't Chosen by Destiny, but makes their way through intelligence and training in spite of it, or

2) Is Chosen by Destiny, but it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Destiny gives them a pile of enemies and no Spehsul Powarz, so they have to become badass on their own to deal with it.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:55 pm

I think it's partly a Western concept...lots of Japanese shows, for example, have a hero who isn't all that special but works like a dog and everntually outclasses all the "talented but lazy" characters through grit and determination.

Of course, there are plenty of Japanese Mary Sues...

Honestly, I'll see your Ranma and raise you Bruce Wayne. I'll see your Superman and raise you Shinji.

The idea of a hero who is heroic because he works hard for it is appealing because it is fair. And people like it when the world offers them things which are fair. The idea of a hero who is heroic because they have been chosen for no real reason is appealing because it is personal. Every person is a person, so if the hero card gets dealt out randomly then you personally are just as likely a selection as any other.

So yeah. For every King Arthur (who is chosen arbitrarily) there is a Lancelot (who "chooses" himself). Really good stories where people get power completely on accident tend to play on themes of personal responsibility and the reluctant hero - like Spiderman. Really dumb stories about people getting power for no reason tend to revolve around the character's personal bad assery or sexual conquests - like the Wheel of Time.

-Username17

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:00 pm

Personally, I don't mind "chosen" by destiny anymore than superior genes.

You can't control either.

However, if Bob is chosen by destiny to kick ass, that is because Bob has the seed of TRUE GREATNESS in him.

Whether he waters it and takes care of it is up to him.

Maybe he does have special powers, but unless he actually develops them, he's going to suck compared to the nontalented who worked their butts off.

Magic, meanwhile, I'm fine with being a talent. Its literally impossible in our world as best as we can tell, so having something other than brainpower or willpower or whatever be necessary to use it at all is fine by me.

However, again, if you don't do anything with it, you're not going to get anywhere with it. So you have to be Force Sensitive to use the Force. And you're either born sensitive enough to consciously use it or not.

However, the reason Luke is a great Jedi is that he did train his tail off.

"He has lots of midichlorians!" is annoying. "The (potential to use the) Force is strong in this one!" works.

So I guess that makes my preference a variant of Talisman's idea #2...you're only as special as you make yourself, whether you have a gift or not.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:14 pm

So yeah. For every King Arthur (who is chosen arbitrarily) there is a Lancelot (who "chooses" himself). Really good stories where people get power completely on accident tend to play on themes of personal responsibility and the reluctant hero - like Spiderman. Really dumb stories about people getting power for no reason tend to revolve around the character's personal bad assery or sexual conquests - like the Wheel of Time.

Okay, so what about stories that have both sets of characters?

It's more common than you think. One gets chosen by destiny/superior genes and the other character just 'wants' it really bad so trains very, very hard.

But guess which character ends up with the cooler heroics and which one ends up the sidekick/secondary character?

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:19 pm

In the tales of King Arthur, Lancelot.

Mind, he also might be destiny-chosen, but regardless, in any contest of badassery, Lancelot would win.

Arthur is the rightful heir to the throne. He's a good king. But which is more heroic and badass "I created a law that will establish order amongst my subjects today!" or "I slew a giant with my bare hands!"?

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:34 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: The idea of a hero who is heroic because he works hard for it is appealing because it is fair. And people like it when the world offers them things which are fair. The idea of a hero who is heroic because they have been chosen for no real reason is appealing because it is personal. Every person is a person, so if the hero card gets dealt out randomly then you personally are just as likely a selection as any other.

Yeah, the idea of being special is a pretty appealing idea to people. The idea that you as a person are special because you're an individual is definitely cool. Also most people tend to be incompetent at hero things, so the idea that you could wake up one day and being Spiderman is something that seems more plausible than training for five years and becoming as awesome as Batman.

Heath Robinson · Post by **Heath Robinson** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:28 am

Elennsar wrote:Arthur is the rightful heir to the throne. He's a good king. But which is more heroic and badass "I created a law that will establish order amongst my subjects today!" or "I slew a giant with my bare hands!"?

The former, because the latter has been done by significantly number more people.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:29 am

Pedantic and almost off-topic, but older story collections like Mabinogion has Arthur doing some pretty kickass feats of ability.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:40 am

That's true, but I don't recall Destiny! giving him that ability. Of course, I haven't read those stories, I just know of them.

rapa-nui · Post by **rapa-nui** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:07 am

In real life: Anyone who thinks that being able and willing to 'train really hard' isn't an inherent gift of some type hasn't hung around a Summa Cum Laude engineering student for long enough. The capacity to strive and focus so thoroughly on one thing is no less genetic and rare than the blessed genius who can do multi-variable integrals at age 6.

In fiction: what Frank said.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:14 pm

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:55 pm

10-year-old batman is tiny. And proportioned like an adult, strangely.

Also, I like how Superman and Flash are casually watching a bear and a non-superpowered 10-year-old duke it out. Real heroic, guys.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:46 pm

Talisman wrote:10-year-old batman is tiny. And proportioned like an adult, strangely.

Also, I like how Superman and Flash are casually watching a bear and a non-superpowered 10-year-old duke it out. Real heroic, guys.

Plus Fucking One.

Where's the Superman is an Ass link?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:07 pm

You're thinking of Super Dickery. It's a collection of really dickish things done in Superman comics. Mostly the ones from the 50s to 70s.

-Username17

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:31 pm

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:04 pm

I love that site.