The Gaming Den

So, here's what I've come up with for a condensed skill list for 3.5. I figure someone ought to post something up about it. The skill list is as follows.

Acrobatics is used for Balance, Escape Artist, and Tumble checks.

Athletics is used for Climb, Jump, and Swim checks.

Awareness is used for Spot and Listen checks.

Bluff is used for Bluff and Disguise checks.

Craft is used for Appraise, Craft, and Forgery checks.

It shouldn't be necessary for me to say this next one, but Disable Device is used for Disable Device and Open Lock checks.

Gather Information will be lumped into Diplomacy or Intimidate checks, whichever is appropriate at the time.

Handle Animal is used for Handle Animal and Ride checks.

Knowledge (arcana) is used for Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks relating to arcane magic.

Knowledge (dungeons) is used for Knowledge (dungeoneering and architecture/engineering) checks.

Knowledge (politics) is used for Knowledge (history, nobility and royalty, and religion) checks.

Knowledge (geography) is used for Knowledge (geography and local) checks, and can be used to identify humanoids.

Knowledge (the planes) is used to identify Undead and for Spellcraft checks relating to divine magic, as well as its normal functions.

Stealth is used for Hide and Move Silently checks.

Survival is for Survival and Heal checks.

Well now, that saves us a few skill points, doesn't it? Now, one reason we condense skills is because certain skills have limited usefulness, and should be incorporated into other skills so that points aren't wasted. The other reason is that even though some of the non-condensed skills are actually useful, they are also redundant and require you to spend twice as many skill points (such as Spot and Listen, or Hide and Move Silently) to essentially do one thing.

Finally, here are a list of skills that are only somewhat useful or possibly somewhat redundant, but that I can not find any way to condense feasibly.

Decipher Script - I've only seen it used twice, and it was absolutely necessary both times, but I can't seriously put points into this and think it's a good idea because it might come up once in a campaign.

Search - While definitely necessary for trap-finding and such, it's somewhat redundant in that it is only really useful for trap-finding, and we have Disable Device for getting rid of those pesky things. Problem is, we can't find it without this. I don't know if it can be condensed or even if it should, but it's worth mentioning.

Sleight of Hand - I don't even know. It can certainly be useful in the right situation, but to put points into it when more vital skills will be necessary whereas this might... it's like Decipher Script, only slightly less so.

Use Rope - I don't know why this is even a skill. Does anyone actually ever roll a Use Rope check? I only use it for two things; tying a rope to something when I'm low-level so I can climb down safely, or tying up an unconscious bad guy, both of which I take 20 for. Maybe it could be lumped into the same skill as Sleight of Hand somehow.

So, discuss away.

Paizo has a skill merge called Linguistics - Speak Language, Forgery, & Decipher Script. They also merged Search into Perception, which is otherwise the same as your Awareness combo skill. Sleight of Hand is part of their Bluff.

Linguistics, eh? Eh. Good enough for me. I guess we're scrapping Use Rope altogether then, right?

Expansion of Craft to include both fakery and appraisal - interesting and logical. Does this restrict characters to appraising in fields they've studied (Bowyer, Gemcutter, etc.), or is it a general 'spot value' skill?

I combined the point sink skills of Rope Use, Sleight of Hand and Escape Artist into Legerdemain after watching "The Prestige" once too often. This does have the unintended side-effect of making sailors slippery like eels though...

Actually, I meant for that list to combine Craft into all fields, because a D&D PC putting ranks into Craft is using skill points that could seriously be used for spotting enemies that want to ambush you, or ambushing your enemies, or any number of other things that are actually... well, you know, useful. The only way to make Craft feasible for a PC is to make the one skill encompass all forms of crafting.

Of course, for NPC's, it'd work differently.

I rather like the dichotomy of having Diplomacy and Speak Language. There are languages you speak, and you speak them as well as your diplomancy score suggests. You could do something similar for Craft. Speak Languages should not be a skill point thing because you always need a new language this level and you get new skill points next level. Probably it should work similar to how weapon proficiencies work in Tome material.

While we're at it, combining Bluff and Diplomacy into "Persuasion" makes a lot more sense to me than putting bluff into sleight of hand. Sleight of Hand should be merged with Escape Artist and Use Rope.

-Username17

Insert Boolean's standard rant in favor of extemporaneous character advancement.

The advantages of leveled growth are certainly real, and nearly a requirement if you want to have stark power differences between people in the world and you don't want to have long power discussions like properly running Champions requires of you. However, when it comes to things that are not particularly "power" dependent (such as knowing the secret of Ice Trolls, speaking Sperethiel, or knowing which berries to eat), leveled advancement is such an atrociously bad fit that you'd be best off not using it for that.

Anything that it is reasonable expect a small child to be able to do if they come from one area or another has no special reason to be available with leveled advancement (unless your levels correspond to grade levels and all characters in the game are like 7). Which pretty much leaves a leveled system either:

• Ignoring all those kinds of knowledges and abilities by keeping all game text to combat and obstacle clearance.
• Having a hybrid system in which characters pick up stuff like that on a point base while their fire blasts dutifully become larger at proscribed power-up points regardless.
• Sucking ass through a straw.

-Username17

These things tend to turn out similarly. Here's the one I'm currently using:

Skills

[*]Acrobatics [Balance, Tumble] (Dex)
[*]Appraise [Appraise, Decipher Script] (Int)
[*]Arcana [Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, UMD scrolls] (Int)
[*]Athletics [Climb, Jump, Swim] (Str)
[*]Concentration (Cha)
[*]Craft (Int)
[*]Deception [Bluff, Disguise] (Cha)
[*]Devices [Disable Device, UMD blindly activate & emulate] (Int)
[*]Empathy [Gather Information, Sense Motive] (Wis)
[*]Hide (Dex)
[*]Knowledge (Int)
[*]Legerdemain [Escape Artist, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope] (Dex)
[*]Listen (Wis)
[*]Move Silently (Dex)
[*]Persuasion [Diplomacy, Intimidate] (Cha)
[*]Ride [+Handle Animal] (Cha)
[*]Search [+Survival track] (Wis)
[*]Spot (Wis)

Professional skills (as per the Tomes) must be taken to utilize Craft or Knowledge. All characters automatically start with Profession (<Background>) and Profession (<Class>).


For comparison, you combine (Spot, Listen) and (Hide, Move silently). I kept them separate because it's somewhat important to some of the classes that they can be undetected while behind cover (Move silently) but not in the open (Hide).

Use rope, Escape artist, Sleight of Hand, and Open lock were all combined into Legerdemain because they're all Houdini things. Disable Device already covers locks, so there are basically two lock picking skills.

[Edit] Appraise actually has never been used in play, and instead we've used Knowledge (X). [/Edit]

Anyone else kickedf around the idea of just making concentration a Will Save?

Game On,
fbmf

That breaks the numbers. No two ways about it. While all casters have a good Will save, the Cleric will have a wisdom of at least twenty once the wish economy comes into play, and by 20 will probably be off the RNG compared with Sorcerers and Wizards. Also, saves scale behind skills and way behind damage. It just can't work without eventually becoming binary one way or the other.

Aren't skills vs damage also often binary? The Concentration check system's broked already.

I would argue that the numbers are already broken in that no one fails Concentration checks anyhow (unless people are spell interrupting with maximized scorching rays, in which case no one ever makes one) and the difference in Concentration bonuses between a Dread Necromancer Necropolitan and an Elven archer cleric is damn near the entire die anyhow. If it wasn't for the fact that Concentration checks don't really matter and no one cares, the whole system would be kerfucked from the start.

As is, converting Concentration checks to a will save where the DC is based on the dude threatening you would at least keep things ball parked numbers wise until the game falls apart anyway.

-Username17

Although I like the idea, it would really mess up casters that get poor will saves. I'm not sure if there are any such casters outside of the Monster Manual or Frank & K's Tome series (e.g. the Assassin), but it's still worth considering. It's arguable that such a weakness is actually appropriate flavor.

It screws the kinda-casters (pally and ranger) but those classes are crap anyway and in desperate need of a rewrite.

How about a Concentration check = spellcaster level + spellcasting ability mod? It removes the one-skill tax on spellcasters and keeps it relatively even, without the strange fact that a lich's spells are easier to disrupt than an orc's.

At this point any moderate skill consolidation is probably worth doing (since skills are worth such different amounts, throwing more points at players doesn't work as well), and you can justify lots of pairings. I'd rather have a system where the skills mattered more on their own or we could boost them into mattering and then toss a couple more points at players, but that sort of thing doesn't fit well in the current 3.x class / feat structure

Spycraft 2.0 Skills:

• Acrobatics (Dex-based stuff)
• Analysis (appraising and deciphering stuff)
• Athletics (Str-based stuff)
• Blend (passive I-was-never-here stuff)
• Bluff (lying)
• Bureaucracy (bribery)
• Computers (hacking and overclocking)
• Cultures (familiarity with... um... cultures, including languages)
• Drive (making vehicles go, except horsies and bikes, covered by Acrobatics and Survival, irrespectively)
• Electronics (building and installing electronic crap)

Etc., etc.

I mean, really, the Spycraft 2.0 skill system is 83 pages long (compared to the 3.5 Player's Handbook's 25 pages) and is ridiculously robust. That wheel's already been invented.

…And it eliminates all of those bullshit Knowledge skills, to boot. Jeez, if you're level 12 and know nothing about The Planes WTF kind of adventurer are you?

Hey_I_Can_Chan wrote:…And it eliminates all of those bullshit Knowledge skills, to boot. Jeez, if you're level 12 and know nothing about The Planes WTF kind of adventurer are you?

I think it's not even hard to have material-centric adventures until level 12. Gets harder right after, of course. But anyway, what is done to knowledges, then?

To quote:

Spycraft 2.0 features no Knowledge skill. Any character may make
a Knowledge check at any time about any topic. Knowledge checks
are made to determine if a character knows something that the player
doesn’t (though the GC is within his rights to call for a Knowledge
check even if a player does know something, if he believes the
character might not). Knowledge checks are called for during simple
tasks driven by basic knowledge, such as navigating through an
area. The GC may also call for a Knowledge check when the player
forgets something that his character has been told, representing the
character’s ability to remember things.

Each Knowledge check must focus on one question or simple
task. It operates like a standard skill check, except that each
character’s Knowledge “skill bonus” is equal to his career level +
his Intelligence modifier. This number may be negative.
The base error range of any Knowledge check is 1 and the base
threat range is 20. All Knowledge checks are free actions. Even though
a character may call for one, a Knowledge check is always passive.

Each Knowledge check gains a synergy bonus from any one skill
in the game — whichever skill the GC rules to be most appropriate.
For instance, Security grants the synergy bonus when asking
a question about common alarm systems, while Drive grants the
synergy bonus when navigating in a vehicle.

Yadda yadda yadda. You're a hero. You know stuff. Even the dumb-as-box-of-rocks fighter is going to know about magic. And if he's not supposed to, set the DC higher. Done. Then, if he gets lucky anyway, fuck it, just tell him.

Skills should do things. Sure, knowledge is power and all that bullshit, but real power is being able to apply that knowledge, and that's what skills should do.

If something should be known without resource expenditure, people should just, you know, know it. And not everything should have any chance of being known without resource expenditure. It'd have been much better to just fold all easy-to-name knowledges into "active" skills, for example - if you think knowledges have no place.

And not everything should have any chance of being known without resource expenditure.

Um… why? Either you want the main dudes to know it or you don't. Yeah, there's the gray area wherein you say, "Oh, that's background information, I guess," and you huck it at people, but beyond that, what else is there?

I mean, yeah, there's commune and shit, but even that's to advance the plot, which is the point after all. Even though it costs XP.

"Wanting the main dudes to be able to learn it if they invest the resources" and "wanting the main dudes to be able to have it at their finger tips without worrying about it" are two different things.

Having everything be "Level+Int, DC = entirely up to the DM based on something totally arbitrary." doesn't work very well for either.

Hey_I_Can_Chan wrote:Um… why? Either you want the main dudes to know it or you don't. Yeah, there's the gray area wherein you say, "Oh, that's background information, I guess," and you huck it at people, but beyond that, what else is there?

Differences between characters? Why do you want any character capacity to vary? Also, don't you see the ability to form 2 different parties with 2 different knowledge sets to be useful?

Boolean wrote:Insert Boolean's standard rant in favor of extemporaneous character advancement.

Where can I find this rant?

Differences between characters? Why do you want any character capacity to vary? Also, don't you see the ability to form 2 different parties with 2 different knowledge sets to be useful?

No. I don't.

I see the ability to form parties with two different ability sets as useful, but actual knowledge is a campaign function. Your character must know enough to advance the plot, otherwise the game stalls. Knowledge doesn't do anything, and placing a price on it (in skill points) quantifies something that needn't be quantified.

Throwing a shit-ton of ranks into Knowledge (arcana) just means that you can bullshit for hours. But any character should be able to bullshit for hours without a skill.

I mean, really, let's say that part of your plot involves the the PCs infiltrating an adventurers' club, and the rogue with no Knowledge skills has to make small talk. He wants to talk about traps in ancient ruins. Are you seriously saying you'd want him to make a Knowledge (history) check about that? That his bajillion ranks in Disable Device would be insufficient?

If it does something it should be a skill. Knowing stuff isn't a skill; it's a function of the game world.