De-Necessitizing Power Attack

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:48 pm

I doubt that's a word, but here's the gist:

In 3e, Power Attack sucks because it's necessary for "brute" characters to do damage. You see, 3e has a thing against fighters and other heavily-armored characters. You're a fighter, so you don't get nice things--sneak attack, favored enemy, skirmish, and such. (Monks are an exception to this. You're a monk, so you get to suck nuts no matter what.) All these options overcome the specific need for Power Attack--you get bonus damage just from your class. Now, the problem is that fighters are required to use Power Attack if they want to do level-appropriate damage. This is dumb. Power Attack should be able to supply extra damage, but you shouldn't be forced to use it.

So we need a way to fix this.

Let's say we give a level-based bonus to damage, though. Oops, now rogues are doing even more damage, and fighters still get the shaft.

So what's the solution?

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm

BAB-based bonus to damage? Figuring out how to lessen the HP bloat?

violence in the media · Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:52 pm

Why would a level-based bonus to damage have to apply to all classes?

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:53 pm

Shouldn't fighters be focusing more on BC and tactical options and not damage?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:54 pm

Both of those are possible solutions, but then we run into two problems:

1. Rogues get almost the same BAB as fighters. So let's say you get +1d10 damage at +5 BAB and every 5 BAB points thereafter. Well, rogues are getting +3d10 damage and fighters are getting +4d10...at level 20. That's pointless. So instead, we nerf the bonuses--you get +1d6 damage at +5 BAB and every 5 BAB points thereafter. Until you hit +16 BAB. Then all those d6s turn into 2d6s or something. Well, that kind of works, but it feels clunky.

2. Lessening the HP bloat means that you'll have to de-power rogues. (+3d6 sneak attack damage at level 21, lawl.) This is a possible solution, but it requires a ton of reconfiguration.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:55 pm

ubernoob wrote:Shouldn't fighters be focusing more on BC and tactical options and not damage?

Probably. But I'd like to make this easy on new players. Also, if a fighter wants to chop somebody in two, I don't want to stand in his way.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:00 pm

I can definately agree on not screwing the rogue. And I see your point about the difference in BAB. Even going with +1 per 2 points, that still ends up at +10 for the fighter and +7 for the rogue.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:04 pm

Well, if we accept that Power Attack is a necessity, perhaps we could "fix" it by making it scale to BAB. The rogue isn't going to be using Power Attack either way, so that wouldn't be such a huge deal.

EDIT: Alternatively, we could just give everyone Power Attack for free and let them choose when to use it.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:06 pm

That has been my opinion for awhile, though I haven't tested it. I figured giving PA and CE for free to everyone, with a cap at +5. Then an improved version could be bought to increase it to BAB limit. That way, no one has to waste time taking CE to get to the Improved stuff, and melees have a bit more options.

violence in the media · Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:06 pm

What if you had a Fighter class ability that occurred at each level they gained a bonus attack that granted a bonus dice of damage to all weapon attacks, with any weapon? A fighter hits level six and, in addition to being able to make 2 attacks, all his attacks also do +1d8 (or whatever) damage. That way, it isn't a function of his BAB, it is a function of being a Level 6, 11, or 16 Fighter.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:10 pm

TOZ wrote: Figuring out how to lessen the HP bloat?

This. HP ballooning out of all proportion is one of the bigger flaws in both 3rd and 4th edition.

roughly half the problems of 3rd editions are a product of blowing HP up, and then trying to compensate for it (including CR, power attack and the SoD vs. direct damage dichotomy- if you can kill something in 2 rounds with actual damage, having a 50/50 of killing it with an SoD in 1 round isn't a bad idea).

Naszir · Post by **Naszir** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:11 pm

How about BAB damage just for Fighters? It could be a class feature called Fighting Prowess.

Fighters deal extra damage on every hit equal to their main BAB.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:28 pm

Naszir wrote:How about BAB damage just for Fighters? It could be a class feature called Fighting Prowess.

Fighters deal extra damage on every hit equal to their main BAB.

Except then, what about every other beatstick that has nothing else to fall back upon?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:31 pm

Well, you could have a house rule that says, "If your BAB is equal to your level, you get +damage. But not with divine power."

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:37 pm

Best way to do that is in the combat rules: 'If your class gains the best attack bonus progression, you gain a bonus to damage equal to your base attack bonus.'

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:39 pm

Then the problem comes with PrCs and multiclassing. I'm not sure there's a great fix in 3e, aside from everyone having PA and making it scale.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:42 pm

Either way, the only way to make it matter is to progress enough in each class. a Ftr/Rog equally classed misses out on 10 points of the fighter levels, and 4 or 5 SA dice. But yes, 3rd does make it a headache.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:00 pm

We can just remove multiclassing and PrCs lulz.

Naszir · Post by **Naszir** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:14 pm

Roy wrote:
Naszir wrote:How about BAB damage just for Fighters? It could be a class feature called Fighting Prowess.

Fighters deal extra damage on every hit equal to their main BAB.
Except then, what about every other beatstick that has nothing else to fall back upon?

Barbarians and Paladins need nothing to fall back upon. Rangers could use a boost but it somehow seems unfulfilling to just give them the same bonus as Fighters.

Rangers could gain a class ablitiy that is similar to the Skirmish feat maybe?

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:29 pm

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48453, Races of War, or .pdf. Every single thing here was addressed there.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:58 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:We can just remove multiclassing and PrCs lulz.

4E?

Calibron · Post by **Calibron** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:54 am

TOZ wrote:4E?

The answer to our prayers!

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:11 pm

This topic has been discussed previously.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:43 pm

Link?

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:52 pm

Every repost is a repost, etc.

What about changing the Con rules to +Con score to hit points, no Con bonus to each level? What effect do you think this would have? Make combat even more swingy, or make low levels slightly easier while making high levels more interesting? Would direct damage spells become appreciably more useful?

And yes I realize monster damage would need toning down a bit, but then it already does. *shrug*