What's a 'pillow friend'?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:37 am

Is it as dirty as it sounds like or is it something completely innocent?

INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW, DAMMIT.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:39 am

Pillow Friends is the euphemism that people use in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Endlessness series for homosexual lovers.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:57 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Pillow Friends is the euphemism that people use in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Endlessness series for homosexual lovers.

-Username17

Thanks, Frank.

I didn't know Robert Jordan was that progressive. Maybe I'll have to pick up one of those doorstoppers.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:19 am

He's not and you shouldn't. The only homosexuals in that setting are lesbians, and that's just because hot chicks eating each other out is a major turn on for dudes.

-Username17

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:28 am

At some point I tried to lay out the case that Robert Jordan was a giant raving misogynist to one or two of his many female fans.

It's a pretty clear cut and excessively evident case, but they wouldn't have any of it.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:35 am

PhoneLobster wrote:At some point I tried to lay out the case that Robert Jordan was a giant raving misogynist to one or two of his many female fans.

It's a pretty clear cut and excessively evident case, but they wouldn't have any of it.

Do go on.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:49 am

Well. It's been a long time since I read the books. But there are a number of major points.

1) The whole Harem thing.

2) Most female characters are Nuns. Magic witch Nuns. Those who stopped being magic nuns are alternately slaves of evil or forcibly drafted into the Harem and stuff.

3) Except the foreign magic nuns who were leash using dom/sub sadomasochistic sex role player nuns.

4) The, very, few strong women in the setting are domineering, secretive and ultimately not very productive. In fact I'm really just referring to that one magic nun that found Rand/Jesus in the first place. She bossed him around, got him in trouble, never let him have his way, ultimately reformed, realised letting him have his way (no matter how stupid and bull headed he seemed or how sensible she thought she was being) was right and promptly sacrificed her life for him.

EDIT: [Actually various aspects of this relationship match the attitude of a lot of the female characters, they keep trying to take charge and make decisions for Jesus and his friends, and always always screw it up massively, several of them ultimately see the light radiating from Rand's crotch and realise they need to simply submit to his whims and everything will be cool]

5) The REST of the main female characters take leadership of the rest of the magic nuns lead them into the wilderness and walk them around in circles avoiding the main plot for like YEARS. They hoard magic items from the main character that could potentially save the world for several books, and generally wander around like a bunch of dithering idiots engaging in petty squabbles and romantic insignificance failing to make magic breakthroughs. Compared to Jesus's MANLY MAN CAMP they are massively unsuccessful as both a research and warrior magician force.

Ultimately if you actually consider all the actions of the dark lords actual forces and all the actions taken (or gratuitously NOT taken) by the female characters it is hard pressed to determine which group did more to help the dark lord and hinder Harem-Jesus-Boy.

Editeditedit!. Actually one of the reasons I'm a bit fuzzy on the details is come to think of it the massive overlaps in misogyny and other mania between Wheel Of Ass and Terry Goodkind's series. I find myself thinking "no the foreign nuns (infiltrated by Satan) with S&M leashes were in Wheel of Time, no wait, Sword of Truth, no wait, BOTH!! AAAAAH!!!"

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:12 pm

Yeah, that author really had issues with women. I couldn't bring myself to read the WoT after seeing some prime samples of his work.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:14 pm

You know, I never caught that, considering I grew out of my Wheel of Time phase when I was 14. All I know was the female characters pissed me off, and I wasn't sure why.

Also, never saw/realized any lesbian stuff in the books, but it wouldn't have impressed me.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:16 pm

It's a shame, because the earlier books in that series were actually pretty good, as was the very last one that he wrote.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:50 am

Didn't his wife help him a lot with the later books, since he was sort of losing function in his brain as a result of whatever it was that killed him?

(tumor? MS? I completely forget... can MS fuck up your brain after wiki-ing it... maybe not).

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:30 am

No idea, but it was his -very last- book that was the really good one, not the later books.

He died from some blood disorder iirc, not a brain disorder.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:40 am

I think it was some kind of leukemia.

I think PL's painting with too broad a brush.

Rand's relationship with Moiraine struck me as almost a parent-child relationship. It's like she was a replacement for the mother he lost at an early age. Except that Rand's 18 when the endless story begins, so naturally he's going to balk at excessive parent-to-child overtones in Moiraine's manner toward him. Same with Nynaeve, who has the attitude that she's the entire village's mother. The reason Moiraine's "surrender" strategy works is that Rand must feel he is being taken seriously as an adult in order not to snap at people (in addition to having some contact with the anti-social evil of Mashadar).

One other quick point: Rand's "man camp" of Asha'man isnt' really that successful at the ultimate goal. Rand spends several of the books conquering nations but not really doing anything to advance his goal of defeating the Dark One. One reason people kept getting frustrated at the later books is that all the characters, male and female, were acting like idiots (well, that and the plot was hardly advancing at all).

I do have to agree about the "Harem," though. Assuming you're talking about the whole "I am destined to have three women, who will all be okay with the idea" concept.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:58 am

Wait, Rand's actually the name of the character in a book?

I thought PL making a clever and witty allusion to the goddess of that psychopathic philosophy known as 'Objectivism' known as Ayn Rand and pairing it up with Jesus as satire. You know, a character who him/herself sees themselves as the next messiah but is really just a selfish, arrogant infant.

I didn't know the character was actually called Rand.

What the fuck kind of name is Rand for a fantasy hero, anyway? That's ridiculous. That sounds like the name of a protagonist who has a busted, rusted Chevy on their front lawn and has to be careful not to knock over the cans of Tecate beer filled with weeks-old tobacco spit in his bedroom.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:09 am

I couldn't. Choke down. Jordan's writing style. It was. Too. Much to. Handle. For my Asimov. Trained mind.

While a friend informed me of the Pillow Friends implication, I thought it was about casual sex in general, not Love That Must Not Speak Its Name.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:29 am

Yes, the character is actually named Rand. Also he is cursed to fly into rages for no reason and occasionally hurt the women he has freaky foursomes with, but that's OK because he's Joseph Smith and they all love him so much they don't mind sharing.

So yeah, he's a poster child for Polygamy and Domestic Violence.

-Username17

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:50 am

I'll say one word to defend that though, if I had to put up with the collective bullshit of three women, I'd fly into rages too. Fuck, the last time I had ONE woman I was under a state of barely contained fury for about 6 years. I can't imagine what putting up with three would do to my psyche.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:29 pm

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:I'll say one word to defend that though, if I had to put up with the collective bullshit of three women, I'd fly into rages too. Fuck, the last time I had ONE woman I was under a state of barely contained fury for about 6 years. I can't imagine what putting up with three would do to my psyche.

You can just not be a morally bankrupt idiot and not do that, so your defense's entirely retarded - maybe even worse than that.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:23 pm

Try this:

http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/sh ... p?t=386600

Edit: My vague memories of the beginning of the Eye of the World tell me Rand's home didn't sound like a bad place. But the abbreviated Eye of the World are, in fact, pretty spot-on.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:14 pm

I think it all went downhill when Moraine died.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:24 pm

Bigode wrote:
Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:I'll say one word to defend that though, if I had to put up with the collective bullshit of three women, I'd fly into rages too. Fuck, the last time I had ONE woman I was under a state of barely contained fury for about 6 years. I can't imagine what putting up with three would do to my psyche.
You can just not be a morally bankrupt idiot and not do that, so your defense's entirely retarded - maybe even worse than that.

I didn't defend his actions, I just defended being pissed off. There's a difference.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:53 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
I didn't know the character was actually called Rand.

Well the full name is the somewhat more fantastic sounding Rand Al'Thor.

Of course that anagrams to "Darn Harlot".....

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:14 am

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:I didn't defend his actions, I just defended being pissed off. There's a difference.

Eh. Sure, but the ladies' man Gary Stu retard who marries 3 women had better be emotionally prepared for it (if that's even possible), right?

Count Arioch the 28th · Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:21 pm

Bigode wrote:
Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:I didn't defend his actions, I just defended being pissed off. There's a difference.
Eh. Sure, but the ladies' man Gary Stu retard who marries 3 women had better be emotionally prepared for it (if that's even possible), right?

Valid point.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:50 am

PhoneLobster wrote:In fact I'm really just referring to that one magic nun that found Rand/Jesus in the first place. She bossed him around, got him in trouble, never let him have his way, ultimately reformed, realised letting him have his way (no matter how stupid and bull headed he seemed or how sensible she thought she was being) was right and promptly sacrificed her life for him.

I would just like to mention that Moraine was easily the most sympathetic female character. Aside from that, I pretty much agree with PL.

Oh, and let's not forget Mat and Perrin - two of the potentially most interesting characters - being completely submerged by their respective millstones wives (destined-wife in one case).

At least Mat still has a little fire. Perrin...eesh. He was cool for a book or two.