Making a Fantasy Game

[Username17]

So some people have asked what goes into making a Fantasy Game as opposed to any other kind of rpg. The answer is a lot. But I figure I should probably just put up a big list:

The things adventurers are supposed to do in while adventuring need to be established in advance - explicitly. And then the powers lists need to be fitted to whatever those things are. If you don't do that, things will get out of control - very quickly. Like what Boolean was saying about the Wizards having all the good powers and also being the only ones who knew what was going on with the plot. That's fucked.

What ultimately needs doing is busting out a map, time line, a solid set of species, a set of countries with outstanding grievances, economies, and production. An interlocking system of security measures and limitations has to be introduced and documented. If dragons are supposed to mostly stay alive, they have to be able to mostly stay alive in an emergent fashion from the rules presented. If players are supposed to go in groups of five to fight the dragons in their caves, well the rules should suggest that actually doing that would be a good idea. Because if the rules suggest that you should give all the villagers slings and just pelt it to death when it shows up - people will do that. If the rules suggest that you should open a portal to a volcano and cover its cave off with magma then the players will do that too.

Now the question is, what would I be most interested in putting in contributions for? The answer I think, is this one:

one for floating islands and crazy ant-people

Right. It is looking to have a mostly pan-asian feel, with an emphasis on the early Iron Age, right after the collapse of the major Bronze Age empires. But it needs a lot of work, and I can't do it alone.

Redarkhan
Hive Mosyna
Jarbah
Hive acatl
Atayala
Lifarian League
Senicia
The Scrap Pile

So not only does there need to be a lot of infilling, and a lot of plotting out of what abilities people are expected and potentially able to acquire - it also needs a whole series of thought given over to what players are supposed to be able to accomplish and what ind of opposition they can expect.

-Username17

[Bigode]

A) you mentioned the original TNE color wheel having space for, say, Svarloka. Do you have any idea about the scavengeability between the 2 element systems?

B) would you still have plans of fitting alfar and orcs in the old Culture Focus material?

[baduin]

I think that first of all the tactical game system must be sorted out. In D&D you are supposed to win 100% of encounters in order to win the campaign. No retreat, no surrender!

Of course, as the result encounters must be easy enough that you are nearly sure to at least reach the final one. And to be honest, the tactical wargame in which you are nearly sure to win is not as interesting as it could be.

So, I would propose a system in which you need to win about 60-70% of combats in order to win the campaign. In such a system, you would have a 30-40% chance of losing each individual combat. Of course, this requires some additional conditions:

a) It is possible, and even probable, to lose a combat without the whole party getting killed or captured. Most combats end in a retreat of one side.
b) Even when one of the characters is captured, he will be probably ransomed back or freed by his friends
c) Getting captured and losing gear is not the game-ending level. Replacing lost gear should be unpleasant, but absolutely possible - even multiple times.
d) As the corollary of A, probably both sides: characters and monsters - should have morale rules which force them to flee at some points. Rules should definitely facilitate retreat as a tactical option.
e) players want to use the same PCs throughout the campaign. Ergo nearly all killed PCs should only be "mostly dead" and able to be restored. True death of PCs should be an absolute exception.
f) the same must apply to important enemies. Low-level minions can get really killed (eg there can be a rule that higher-level opponents can kill you wholly dead), but main opponents must follow the same rules as PCs, or there should be some plausible explanation why PCs belong to some special group. (Eg descendants of gods are mostly immortal, and all PCs and some of their enemies are descendants of gods).

As an example of tactical wargame, I would suggest Mordheim. games-workshop.com/...

It is designed so that two warbands can fight, with each having 50% chance of winning, and both will remain usable after the conflict - most named heroes will definitely survive.

[edit:neilhuiz]Managing link length.

[Maxus]

I can make a map out of the information supplied--easily, since it makes some sense from a geomorphic perspective.

[virgil]

To quote an opinion I've stated on this subject before...

I want ancient dungeons and massive cavern complexes and dark, enchanted woodlands AND at least one human empire. I want to be able to create the stereotypical adventuring party, with wiggle-room to create a reverse-cliche party and at least two oddballs AND two gish-types. I want tavern wenches to woo and village mobs to flee from and city guard to surrender to when they've got thirty crossbows pointed (and three more at each standard foot exit). I want evil cults with demon summoners and corrupt priests of the light. I want to be able to waste almost all my money on debauchery, or save it for awesome bribes with the captain of the guard (behind the scenes or at the gate).

I'm not quite certain how to mechanically create the situation where Mobs > Party > Monsters > Mobs. I don't ever want the party to be able to replace an army, yet the party very much needs to be able to save a town from a monster that would otherwise destroy it.

I also really connect with that anti-4e statement you made earlier, and want tactical selection of which power to use at any one point.

There's a certain draw for me in having some manner of 'chaos' available. It could be a class of monster that's shapeable into almost anything. Not to say there wouldn't be some level of predictability, like all such 'chaos-beasts' could be vulnerable to sunlight and are all created by exposure to dreams or something.

[Maxus]

Okay, here's a first try...

The spine of the Redarkhan peninsula is a mountainous chain that's, geologically speaking, starting to split off from Kinoc's Spine, which I forgot to label.

Kinoc's spine is rather like the Rocky Mountains, being an extremely high, extremely tangled, pile of rock that's resulted from several collisions. What's notable is you have to travel up quite a ways to get the base of what you'd consider a distinct mountain--the process which formed the Spine have stacked it quite high. It makes a massive rain shadow, which extends an uninmaginable distance out in the form of the Jaharb Plateau and the Mosynic Desert. All the rain that's blocked by the Spine, however, gets dumped on Redarkhan.

Coming out from the Spine is the Chepec River, which descends a series of smaller plateaus before wandering out to form the major waterway of Sinicia.

Stretching above and behind Kinoc's Spine is the Frostmire.

[TavishArtair]

Just a minor point, your compass currently is pointing to the top of the image as south... the further into the Frostmire you go, the further South you go, until you go into the absolute frost.

[Maxus]

Just a minor point, your compass currently is pointing to the top of the image as south... the further into the Frostmire you go, the further South you go, until you go into the absolute frost.

What makes this really amusing is I didn't add a compass.

[TavishArtair]

Just a minor point, your compass currently is pointing to the top of the image as south... the further into the Frostmire you go, the further South you go, until you go into the absolute frost.

What makes this really amusing is I didn't add a compass.

Well yes. I was just observing where your compass necessarily has to point to be consistent with the existing entry on the Frostmire.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I'm not quite certain how to mechanically create the situation where Mobs > Party > Monsters > Mobs.

Monsters have good AoEs, Party has good single-target attacks, and Mob members have a fuckton of decent single-target attacks.

[Maxus]

Just a minor point, your compass currently is pointing to the top of the image as south... the further into the Frostmire you go, the further South you go, until you go into the absolute frost.

What makes this really amusing is I didn't add a compass.

Well yes. I was just observing where your compass necessarily has to point to be consistent with the existing entry on the Frostmire.

Ah, damn. Correcting now...

Edit:

[JonSetanta]

I'd like to mention that in comparison to Real World Earth human history, royal marriages/intermarriages are generally impossible between different species.
Obviously.

Rakshasacock? I'll walk.

.. but such a limitation on diplomatic and economic solidification becomes absolute when dealing with the 'bug people'.
As a result, I suspect long-term treaties would easily suffer in times of hardship due to lack of, uh, 'special handshakes'.
Not that no one would try, no, but that from what I gather it's impossible to
mesh genes nor culture with the bugs.

---

As for technological development, I'll plop down this tidbit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebig%27s ... he_minimum

Essentially the growth and well-being of a population is not governed by the quantity of their more abundant resources, but rather the scarcity of the rare ones.
TNE needs a definition for each region of the inverse of their chief exports: the chief imports.

Therein lies the plot hook; X nation needs Y sparse resource.
• Will the PCs take the opportunity to risk travel and trade for profit?
• Are the PCs going to be merchants... or raiders?
• How will supplying Y resource in large amounts alter the dynamic between nations as one becomes more powerful than another?

[Username17]

B) would you still have plans of fitting alfar and orcs in the old Culture Focus material?

There's a certain draw for me in having some manner of 'chaos' available. It could be a class of monster that's shapeable into almost anything. Not to say there wouldn't be some level of predictability, like all such 'chaos-beasts' could be vulnerable to sunlight and are all created by exposure to dreams or something.

The second goal can probably be best fit by having Dragons be able to add body parts and powers through force of will as they grow. This gives a continuous source of crazy village-threatening monsters without straining the ecosystem that much. Basically, when you fight a giant three headed fire-breathing lion with tentacles that's literally the only one because the other dragons that are that beasts brothers and sisters don't look a damn thing like that.

But that sort of squeezes Alfar out, because most of their shtick is thus absorbed by the Dragons. Orcs/Rakshasa could still go in though.

Ah, damn. Correcting now...

Wouldn't there need to be fjords or something cutting the ocean in deep to the Frost Mires to keep them from turning into a desert? I would think that the Frost Mires would have to have water south of them or inside them.

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

Now the question is, what would I be most interested in putting in contributions for? The answer I think, is this one:

I think this is the most important point in the thread. Anyone who isn't happy with whatever Frank writes needs to either do the writing themselves or shutup and not bitch that the end product isn't what they wanted.

[Elennsar]

Then the question is naturally how many people want the same as what Frank wants?

Both in the broad picture ("a mostly pan-asian feel, with an emphasis on the early Iron Age, right after the collapse of the major Bronze Age empires.") and the details.

Do we need a poll thread, or do we have a consensus (one way or another) here?

[Koumei]

What normally happens is we just argue about it for a while and whoever is most stubborn gets their way. Or alternatively, Frank or K do their thing and everyone else can either add ideas and discussion or go and make their own thing.

[Draco_Argentum]

What normally happens is we just argue about it for a while and whoever is most stubborn gets their way. Or alternatively, Frank or K do their thing and everyone else can either add ideas and discussion or go and make their own thing.

Well the end result is obvious. Noone here is beholden to the results of a poll or discussion. Whoever writes it determines what it is.

[Elennsar]

No, but it would be interesting to know whether this is a project with Frank, or by Frank.

No need to beholden to any poll, but if most people want something different, and Frank can't do it alone...I somehow doubt we'll see this particular idea fly.

[Username17]

A "parry" system can make a character good against a small number of enemies without being good against a large number of enemies of much lower quality.

A "damage reduction" system can make a character good against a large number of low quality enemies without meaningfully affecting their outcomes against a smaller number of higher quality enemies.

So a system of Mob > Heroes > Monsters > Mobs is certainly possible. Just give the Heroes "parry" type defenses and monsters "damage reduction" type defenses.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

No, but it would be interesting to know whether this is a project with Frank, or by Frank.

As Koumei stated, most stubborn gets their way. Essentially this defaults to Frank as most contributions become reduced to blurts of inspiration or white noise for whoever writes the final draft (Frank, since K is absent) but there are some eager contenders.
You could end up with, say, 5 separate incarnations of TNE, each claiming to be The One True Edition, but then they'd have to perform a Trial by Stone with big swords.
The loser(s) goes off and whines to gelflings.

[Maxus]

Wouldn't there need to be fjords or something cutting the ocean in deep to the Frost Mires to keep them from turning into a desert? I would think that the Frost Mires would have to have water south of them or inside them.

-Username17

Pretty much. I tried a couple of copies where Kinoc's Spine ran all the way up to the pole. Once contiguity and land shape is finalized, I'll see if I can do a prettier-looking map.

[Judging__Eagle]

Oh, map making.... I've actually got a copy of the old AD&D world builder's guide; the nice thing is that it keeps one from creating the same rote fantasy 'world' map.

You know, the one where the ocean is on the west (left of the map), and maybe on the far south or far north; the (far) north is almost always invariabley icey, or uninhabited; and land continues ever onwards towards the east (right) side of the map.

Tolkien did a lot of good things; but his map-style seems to be copied in.... almost every fantasy setting that I have ever seen, from Wheel of the Endless Cycle (although it gets expanded eventually, and 'more' land is added on the far left across an ocean, but still, he did't make a full on world map), to uh... Forgotten realms (Sword Coast, what?! it's the same bloody setup; water left, land right, ice in the top) to... well, nearly any fantasy book that includes a map.

The really fun thing about the TSR product is that it goes into describing how say... water masses and plate tectonics need to be determined, so that you can determine weather patterns in an area (water movement controlling wind), or before you can just dump down a chain of mountains.

[Maxus]

I experimented with the Fractal World Generator, trying to get the requisite landforms to...form.

Here's one result. It might take a while to load if you have a slow connection

[angelfromanotherpin]

You know, we could go more fantastic. World Tree is set on one really enormous tree. Reign's sample setting has two continents that look like a man and a woman having a tender moment. Any interest in that kind of thing?

[Maxus]

Eh. I like fantastic landscapes--I kinda dig on the look of Planescape, for example--but continents looking like people? Come on. Let's leave people room to ignore the existence of deities if they so choose.