[Whiny Bitchfest] Making CON not a douchebag ability.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:52 am

I know I've already posted on this, but I'm going to do so again:

Screw the Constitution score.

Not really. It's a great stat. But it sure is annoying, what with the HP inflation and all. It's also too necessary for its own good. In my current group, the wizard is tied for the most HP out of everyone else because of his CON score. The rogue and cleric both have 10s, which means that they get sodomized in terms of HP.

Basically, CON can never be a dump stat, because you'll die otherwise. At least, in 3e. In 4e, CON is sort of a joke because you get more healing surges with it, which doesn't really matter because the party is going to take a power nap every few fights anyhow when the wizard runs out of healing surges.

So I'm trying to figure out a way to make CON useful but less vital to characters while preventing HP bloat. My thoughts so far:

1. You add your CON score to your hitpoints as a flat bonus, and you get no other HP bonus. Since it boosts your Fort saves already, it's useful-ish. However, I feel that this might be suck-tacular because it basically means that you're getting a few +1s to your Fort save, and that's it.

2. You add 1/2 your CON modifier to HP per level. This has the benefit of slowing HP bloat, but when characters have a +10 CON bonus, that's still a lot of extra HP.

3. Say "screw it" and combine Strength and Constitution into Body. This, unfortunately, dumps all over the six-stat framework of D&D. For some people, this is good, but I find this solution unpalatable.

4. Use a healing surge-ish system that gives players more HP overall, but not all at one time. This leaves the same problem as spell slots do in 3e: once the wizard is out of spells, we're resting, no matter what. So once Billy the Five-Con Wonder gets hit and blows through his healing douches, we're resting and that's that.

Any other ideas?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:05 am

3. Say "screw it" and combine Strength and Constitution into Body. This, unfortunately, dumps all over the six-stat framework of D&D. For some people, this is good, but I find this solution unpalatable.

Uh, why? I hate having six stats. It makes it impossible for stats to oppose each other evenly. I mean, hell, even D&D admits how clunky this shit is. There's no reason at all to have a reflex stat AND an AC stat other than the fact that we need to divide up the saves evenly.

I have no idea why we have a constitution stat and a charisma stat. Charisma should be folded into Intelligence and Constitution should be folded into Strength.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:17 am

Changing constitution isn't workable in D&D 3 as it stands, period. You'd have to change too many other things.

Option 3 would just result in everyone being really strong as well as healthy, which we don't want.

Option 4 is lame for the reason that you state.

Option 1 makes Con a dump stat for everyone, because nobody really depends on Con (No skills--Concentration doesn't count, and no class features).

Option 2 doesn't really accomplish much, because it just means you have to pump that many more points into your secondary or tertiary stat. It might work to some extent, but I'm not sure what the end result of such a large drop in the HP of higher level characters and certain creatures would be.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:37 am

Option 3 would just result in everyone being really strong as well as healthy, which we don't want.

Why, exactly?

I can't think of many 'high strength, low constitution' monsters or PC builds off of the top of my head. Don't think too hard about it, you won't be able to either.

As you've pointed out, the problem is that constitution is too useful in one certain area but not all that good outside what it's supposed to do. If you nerf the hit points it hands out then no one gives a shit about the score; it becomes the new charisma.

Constitution should be folded into the strength score and some other game statistic should be used to determine the amount of hit points you have. I think some combination of the aggregateyour saves and BAB modifier should do the trick. Something like 6 hit points per BAB you have, 2 per point of fortitude defense you have, and 1 per point of reflex or will you have.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:40 am

I have no idea why we have a constitution stat and a charisma stat. Charisma should be folded into Intelligence and Constitution should be folded into Strength.

I am vehemently against this. The Internet is proof that Int and Cha are not at all related.

Option 4 is lame for the reason that you state.

I've been mulling this over. A possible system I'm considering is that you have healing surges like in 4e, but they are only usable by the character himself (meaning that you can't have a warlord yell someone into using a healing surge). Healing spells work like they do in 3e (so none of the bullshit, "Hurf, you can't heal if you're out of healing surges" crap).

Option 2 doesn't really accomplish much, because it just means you have to pump that many more points into your secondary or tertiary stat. It might work to some extent, but I'm not sure what the end result of such a large drop in the HP of higher level characters and certain creatures would be.

Probably game-breakage, unfortunately. On the plus side, evocation might be useful enough not to ban, then. (Maybe. Perhaps.)

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:06 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Option 3 would just result in everyone being really strong as well as healthy, which we don't want.
Why, exactly?

I can't think of many 'high strength, low constitution' monsters or PC builds off of the top of my head. Don't think too hard about it, you won't be able to either.

As you've pointed out, the problem is that constitution is too useful in one certain area but not all that good outside what it's supposed to do. If you nerf the hit points it hands out then no one gives a shit about the score; it becomes the new charisma.

Constitution should be folded into the strength score and some other game statistic should be used to determine the amount of hit points you have. I think some combination of the aggregateyour saves and BAB modifier should do the trick. Something like 6 hit points per BAB you have, 2 per point of fortitude defense you have, and 1 per point of reflex or will you have.

Yeah, it would work so long as you excised the HP from Con.

Once you start getting into overhauls of the attribute system, it becomes apparent that the entire foundation is rotten. It's a can of worms.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:02 am

How about 1, at the same time as adding more uses for Con.

Maybe add a skill called Endure or something that is based on Con and replaces the checks for running for long periods, ignoring fatigue on a per round basis, ignoring pain effects, staying conscious below 0hp, ummm...., some other stuff? Means that warrior types have a skill use for it.

Also, it could be useful to come up with other uses for Concentration, such as allowing the Elven 4 hour meditation so Monks actually use the skill. Or using it during watches to make sure that you stay alert. Or letting you pick locks under pressure.

This would at least mean that more rolls use it.

I'd disagree with merging Str and Con because enough people want little tough people like Gnomes, and you could have agile and tough but weak characters.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:57 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote: I can't think of many 'high strength, low constitution' monsters or PC builds off of the top of my head. Don't think too hard about it, you won't be able to either.

Yeah, seriously. Most of the time you have a really strong guy, he's also really tough too.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:48 am

I'm all for removing Constitution. It does not make the world a better place that it exists.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:54 am

I'd disagree with merging Str and Con because enough people want little tough people like Gnomes, and you could have agile and tough but weak characters.

I hate that archetype, much like I hate the idea of idiot high-charisma characters that everyone loves (this never happens in real life) or the druid who remains wise in the ways of the world but can't add two and two.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:56 am

I hate that archetype, much like I hate the idea of idiot high-charisma characters that everyone loves (this never happens in real life) or the druid who remains wise in the ways of the world but can't add two and two.

Frat guys exist, you know.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:00 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
I'd disagree with merging Str and Con because enough people want little tough people like Gnomes, and you could have agile and tough but weak characters.
I hate that archetype, much like I hate the idea of idiot high-charisma characters that everyone loves (this never happens in real life) or the druid who remains wise in the ways of the world but can't add two and two.

So charisma should really be something limited by (but not tied to) intelligence, and health should be something limited by (but not tied to) strength?

There are probably people (and certainly prototypical heroes) "wise in the ways of the world" that haven't learned basic arithmetic.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:02 am

The Wise But Simple character is just as much a trope as the Absentminded Professor. The two stats shouldn't be tied together. In real life, I have a high Int but low Cha and really bad Wis. In that proposed system, I can't exist.

Thanks for aborting me, Lago.

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:11 am

For my own design, I'm toying with the idea of a no-stat system, where the closest to stats that you have are synergy bonuses between your skills.

For D&D, if you're dropping the stat list to four, I'd reccomend Body (STR, CON), Quickness (DEX), Mind (INT), and Will (WIS, CHA), although I haven't playtested this at all. It keeps parallels and has somewhat better-defined stats than core D&D. Also, Quickness needs a monosyllabic name.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:34 am

I've never really liked charisma as a stat in general. I mean... it's almost insulting that you could be playing a cinematic fantasy hero that doesn't have some kind of charisma. Yet, you often have to dump cha for the more important stats, and that sucks.

I mean seriously, look at the Fellowship of the Ring. Everyone in that Fellowship had some kind of charisma, even the Hobbits. Really, it's hard to think of a fantasy hero who doesn't have some degree of charisma. Robin Hood, King Arthur, Merlin, Zorro, Conan, Elric...

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:38 am

Frat guys exist, you know

... and what exactly does being charismatic have to do with being a frat guy?

If we're boiling down people to their stereotypes, frat guys are known for a few things: heavy drug use, being a menace to people not in their social group, being dimmer than the rest of the college campus, and having lots of promiscuous sex. Having a higher-than-average social intelligence isn't needed for any of that, not even the getting promiscuous sex part. You convinced a woman to have drunken intercourse! Congratulations, you accomplished the same fucking thing as nearly every male did ever since we invented booze. Even the smelly, toothless peasants living in Dark Age Europe.

here are probably people (and certainly prototypical heroes) "wise in the ways of the world" that haven't learned basic ari

There are heroes like that, but there is no such thing as a hero who is wise in the ways of the world but can't learn arithmetic.

It's possible to have a high intelligence score and still be ignorant of things. Shakespeare is a way better writer than me but I have a larger vocabulary and more knowledge of storytelling tropes than he does. Plato's knowledge of science is laughably poor next to mine.

... but if we were representing this characters in the Lago and Josh's Excellent Adventure game, they would not have lower intelligence scores than me! They would just be ignorant in certain areas.

The 'illiterate druid who was raised by wolves' is a valid storytelling trope for player characters. 'Illiterate druid who can cast mighty spells but can't ever learn how to count to a hundred no matter how hard she tries' is not.

The Wise But Simple character is just as much a trope as the Absentminded Professor. The two stats shouldn't be tied together. In real life, I have a high Int but low Cha and really bad Wis. In that proposed system, I can't exist.

Wisdom should be a separate stat. We use that start for awareness and intuition.

Charisma does not need to be a separate stat. The only thing Charisma supposedly does is 'knowledge of how to relate to people'. Which is no difference from social intelligence.

Thanks for aborting me, Lago.

Nothing I love more than abortin' babies, except maybe for burnin' bibles and disrespectin' soldiers.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:48 am

I mean, c'mon, if someone is going on a training montage to improve their stats, here's how they would normally do it:

Strength: Lots of strength-building exercises.
Constitution: See strength building, but apparently you do some aerobic exercise, too. Which doesn't make any fucking sense, since you don't get very tough just from building your heart muscles. This is why constitution should be folded into strength.
Dexterity: You do a lot of flexibility, hand-eye coordination, and speed-building exercises.
Intelligence: You read a lot of books.
Wisdom: A whole lot of meditation to open your mind and steel it.
Charisma: ???

Don't tell me you build it by doing a lot of socializing. There are people out there who do non-stop and they never get any more 'influence other people-y'.

It seems to me that the people with the highest 'influence people' score are diplomats, psychologists, and lawyers. And they buld their knowledge by reading books and acquiring knowledge of their profession, just like the intelligence people.

violence in the media · Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:28 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote: It seems to me that the people with the highest 'influence people' score are diplomats, psychologists, and lawyers. And they buld their knowledge by reading books and acquiring knowledge of their profession, just like the intelligence people.

The question is then how do you represent those people that posses raw personality? The hucksters, the con artists, and the players that have never had any formalized training nor that spend their down time poring over sociology texts.

Now, those people are usually pretty smart, but I don't think that linking it directly to Intelligence (at least as we mean it in the game) is the right thing. Otherwise, you wind up with every bookish wizard being the suavest motherfucker on the planet, and that just doesn't seem right.

Maybe we should get rid of Constitution and Charisma and replace them with a selection of feats, drawn from a separate feat pool, to give the players the traits they want? You could have Constitution feats like Hard as nails, Indefatiguable, and Cast-iron stomach. Charisma could have things like Honey-tounged serpent, Iceboxes to Eskimos, and Enviable metabolism.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote: It seems to me that the people with the highest 'influence people' score are diplomats, psychologists, and lawyers. And they buld their knowledge by reading books and acquiring knowledge of their profession, just like the intelligence people.

Let me just say as a psychological researcher,

.

But you make a goof point in terms of training. Becoming more socially adept involves both learning technique (which falls under intelligence in your list) and learning to apply it. The application aspect is just as important, and involves being able to deliver speeches without quaking in your boots, not being socially awkward at a party, and not needing to be drunk to chat with members of the opposite sex.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:47 am

Back to the original Con issue... Here's another alternative PR

5) You gain +2 hp per level, up to a level equal to your Con score -10. After this level you no longer gain this bonus. Standard retroactiveness applies for stat boosts, buffs, etc.

I don't think I particularly like it, but maybe you can do something interesting with it.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:09 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote: There are heroes like that, but there is no such thing as a hero who is wise in the ways of the world but can't learn arithmetic.

You forget Conan the Destroyer check around minute 2 of the vid That movie shows conan with no math skills or intelligence to speak of. Fucking funny though.

Strength: Lots of strength-building exercises.
Constitution: See strength building, but apparently you do some aerobic exercise, too. Which doesn't make any fucking sense, since you don't get very tough just from building your heart muscles. This is why constitution should be folded into strength.
Dexterity: You do a lot of flexibility, hand-eye coordination, and speed-building exercises.
Intelligence: You read a lot of books.
Wisdom: A whole lot of meditation to open your mind and steel it.
Charisma: ???

Don't tell me you build it by doing a lot of socializing. There are people out there who do non-stop and they never get any more 'influence other people-y'.

Well there are stories that show awkward or degenerate characters being turned into sophisticated and debonair socialites. Femme Nikita for one. Sure there is some element of natural charisma but a large part of using it effectively is a conscious education/conditioning of how to get people to do what you want. Heck I used to shy and reclusive and now I get up in front of a group of strangers all the time and talk to them because I thought myself how.
Perhaps charisma should be seen more as manipulation rather than simply "I've got a big smile so people like me".

IGTN wrote:For my own design, I'm toying with the idea of a no-stat system, where the closest to stats that you have are synergy bonuses between your skills.

My guts tell me this is the way to go too. Really does it matter whether you are a big strong guy you powers through you opponents defenses or a sneaky dex guy you gets around them or a calm analytical guy you is doing the trig in his head to perceive where the opening will be. Whether "I hits them good and fucks them up" is all that matters. The rest is character fluff that should be left to the player.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:14 am

ckafrica wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote: There are heroes like that, but there is no such thing as a hero who is wise in the ways of the world but can't learn arithmetic.
You forget Conan the Destroyer check around minute 2 of the vid That movie shows conan with no math skills or intelligence to speak of. Fucking funny though.

Awesome, but unavailable in the US. I wonder why that is?
Anyway, that particular Conan's locutionary prowess seems to be almost nil.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:34 am

You forget Conan the Destroyer check around minute 2 of the vid That movie shows conan with no math skills or intelligence to speak of. Fucking funny though.

Once again, I didn't say that such high-intelligence heroes didn't have to know how to read or do arithmetic, I'm just saying that it's a plothole that they can't.

Well there are stories that show awkward or degenerate characters being turned into sophisticated and debonair socialites. Femme Nikita for one. Sure there is some element of natural charisma but a large part of using it effectively is a conscious education/conditioning of how to get people to do what you want. Heck I used to shy and reclusive and now I get up in front of a group of strangers all the time and talk to them because I thought myself how.

Again, that's intelligence. Socializing with people will not in itself make you more charismatic unless you're intentionally choosing to learn something from the experiences. If you have a job that involves studying general subjects nonstop or lifting heavy objects or using your parkour to deliver pizza you will become smarter, stronger, or faster.

Perhaps charisma should be seen more as manipulation rather than simply "I've got a big smile so people like me".

Then that should also be intelligence. Because if you want to manipulate or motivate someone past 'please person of similar attractiveness and horniness have sex with me' or 'please buy me this toy' you need to be smarter than average.

The trope of 'total dumbass who is nonetheless good at getting people to do important things they don't want to do' only exists on tabletop. Order of the Stick is a really good test of how this theory is supposed to work and how often do you actually see Elan convincing people to do what they want to do?

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:01 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Then that should also be intelligence. Because if you want to manipulate or motivate someone past 'please person of similar attractiveness and horniness have sex with me' or 'please buy me this toy' you need to be smarter than average.

The trope of 'total dumbass who is nonetheless good at getting people to do important things they don't want to do' only exists on tabletop. Order of the Stick is a really good test of how this theory is supposed to work and how often do you actually see Elan convincing people to do what they want to do?

Well when you're talking about seduction, it really doesn't take much intelligence, only charm and appearance. You can very well be a dumb blond trophy wife who talks some rich guy into marrying her and getting half his shit. It doesn't take a huge amount of intelligence to do that.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:23 pm

Well when you're talking about seduction, it really doesn't take much intelligence, only charm and appearance. You can very well be a dumb blond trophy wife who talks some rich guy into marrying her and getting half his shit. It doesn't take a huge amount of intelligence to do that.

That kind of crap does not belong in a D&D game; the act of servant girls seducing princes just by looking pretty is an adventure fit for level one commoners, not heroes looking to achieve real ultimate power.

I don't see any reason why we have to complicate the game to this extent just so we can have a difference between the characters of Cinderella and her ugly stepsisters.