Forgotten Realms Gods are Dicks

[Cielingcat]

So I just was reminded why every single god in the Forgotten Realms setting is a complete and totally evil asshole who is in fact worse than the worst demon lord.

They have this thing called the "Wall of the Faithless" where everyone who doesn't worship one of them is tortured forever until they cease existing. Think on this. It is literally worse than even the worst example of D&D hell, because there you're only tortured until you turn into a demon yourself. The motherfucking Abyss is better than this shit.

And you can't even escape it by acting like you worship them, because then you're one of the False and you also get tortured for eternity.

Condemning every soul in the Forgotten Realms to Hell is literally better than letting them exist on their own.


I fucking hate this setting.

[Avoraciopoctules]

It gets even better when you realize that the periodic raids by demons actually save souls from obliteration. They tear through the wall and run away after getting all the souls they can grab. These souls get turned into abyssmal petitioners.

I vaguely remember a few threads on the subject in other forums where some people argued that it was perfectly acceptable divine behavior, and others that the current god of death disapproved of the wall, but didn't do anything because the wall was necessary to protect the unclaimed souls. If so, well...

It's called Stone, Kelemvor. There are more things to build things out of than the souls of the damned. Learn2Architecture. If nothing else, import from the Prime Material or wherever the dwarf souls go.

[TarkisFlux]

I'm actually playing in a game right now where the DM tweaked realms cosmology and killed off Ao (there was cheering when we learned this), and the rest of the deities will follow shortly. But not before we get to play pokemon with them for our enrichment. I'm going to relish catching all those asshats.

[Heath Robinson]

But, but, but... if the prospect of eternal punishment for choosing not to believe didn't exist, why would anyone believe in the first place?!

[Ganbare Gincun]

Given the fact that the Forgotten Realms is a campaign world where the gods walk the earth every time there's an edition change, you'd have to be completely insane to be one of the Faithless. The primary criteria for being one judged to be one of the Faithless is that they "firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing". It's very difficult to cultivate this kind of skepticism whenever the gods come down every decade and do things like give the Lantanese the secret of gunpowder or defend the city of Tantras or kill each other in the skies above Waterdeep.

But even if the gods weren't putting in personal appearances every decade or so, how can you argue with the divine power that their servants wield? At worst, a skeptic might have questions about the nature of the gods, but I just don't see how anyone walking around in Faerun could seriously make a case against the very existence of the gods.

I should think that the wall surrounding the City Of Judgement is a very small one indeed.

[Bigode]

It's called Stone, Kelemvor. There are more things to build things out of than the souls of the damned. Learn2Architecture. If nothing else, import from the Prime Material or wherever the dwarf souls go.

Maybe Soylent Green protects against both teleportation and etherealness?

But even if the gods weren't putting in personal appearances every decade or so, how can you argue with the divine power that their servants wield? At worst, a skeptic might have questions about the nature of the gods, but I just don't see how anyone walking around in Faerun could seriously make a case against the very existence of the gods.

If it wasn't for the edition changes, you could argue they're crazy bards.

But, but, but... if the prospect of eternal punishment for choosing not to believe didn't exist, why would anyone believe in the first place?!

/thread

[Avoraciopoctules]

With criteria like "firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing" for being stuck in the wall, people who acknowledge the divinity of the gods but think that they are collectively unworthy of obeisance are vulnerable.

If you are playing Planescape, I think you just found the perfect place to terrorize in order to win brownie points with the Athar.


On a somewhat tangential note, how favorably does the Greek cosmology compare to that of Toril?

[Maxus]

To be honest, I'd rather have the Greek pantheon. They seem to be less, well, competent. Which means that they're less efficient at screwing the world over.

They also seem to prefer to bicker rather than war.

[Starmaker]

So I just was reminded why every single god in the Forgotten Realms setting is a complete and totally evil asshole who is in fact worse than the worst demon lord. (emph. mine --SM)

Correction: was. The Wish and the Word killed every single of them who had printed stats, then The Wish wished Ao had printed stats and they killed him/her/it as well. Elminster lost his/her magic and got eaten by a grue. Khelben Arunsun ran into a gelatinous cube on the lower level of Darkmoon Temple and wasn't heard from again. Telamont Tanthul invaded with an army of Shadow Warriors and became the ruler of Tome-powered Realms. He is currently busy fighting off the sahuagin. Everyone is too afraid of the Ultimate Duo to take up the god mantles, not knowing more wishes and rituals of vitality are illegal in Tome.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Punpun is a Forgotten Realms construct, IIRC.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Telamont Tanthul invaded with an army of Shadow Warriors and became the ruler of Tome-powered Realms.

Before I clicked the link, I was thinking of something completely different.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Cielingcat,

One thing good about this setting is the fact that so much of it I dislike. So it's worlds like this that are good for evil campagins (Drizzt, Elminster, the drow, the gods, Mystra, Ao). They all must die!!

[Ganbare Gincun]

With criteria like "firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing" for being stuck in the wall, people who acknowledge the divinity of the gods but think that they are collectively unworthy of obeisance are vulnerable.

Yes, but who would do that? People know that the gods exist, they know that they have power, and given the fact that they're in Faerun and the gods are always trying to accumulate as many followers as possible to either gain or maintain their power, they're very likely to have at least a few brushes with the divine over the course of their lives. Just look at how effective religious indoctrination in the U.S. is. Now imagine it with real gods that come down from the heavens and have servants that raise the dead and fight monsters and the like. Who's going to be an atheist in that kind of world?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Who's going to be an atheist in that kind of world?

Someone who gets tired of the actual gods' bullshit. Although "atheist" has the wrong connotation. "Apostate" or or "heretic" might be better.

[IGTN]

Who's going to be an atheist in that kind of world?

Someone who gets tired of the actual gods' bullshit. Although "atheist" has the wrong connotation. "Apostate" or or "heretic" might be better.

Might be an interesting idea for a character; an apostate who sets up an organization of doing so, using various magics to keep his followers from being added to the wall (Thinaun, Trap the Soul, Stone to Flesh, maybe Create Undead, depending, and so on)

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

There was an organization of arcane wielding magic people that tried to turn against the dieties, but then Jergal killed them all. The exact kind of organization I'd like to join.

[Josh_Kablack]

Honestly I don't buy the whole "Atheism is impossible in a fantasy world where gods visibly walk the earth" line of reasoning.

I mean, theism is very possible here in the real world where they don't.

Within the setting assumptions of a bunch of low level non-combatants and the 3rd ed power scale (where 9th level characters no longer consider any number of first level characters a challenge, and 17th level characters no longer consider any number of 9th level characters a challenge) the difference between a "high level character" and an "actually divine power" are not going to be noticeable when one of either is walking around your town - either will be more than capable of casually ending the lives of most folks in your town on a minor whim with no danger to themselves - heck many of either may be capable of destroying the town, killing everyone, then rebuilding it and resurrecting everyone multiple times within a given week.

Obviously, it's foolish for Joe Commoner to deny that anyone seriously claiming to be a god is someone of lethal power - but it does not follow that Joe Commoner will necessarily feel such characters are worthy of worship. Fear, loyalty, respect and alligence are all at least as likely alternatives.

***

In many ways, Atheists in Forgotten Realms would be akin to the Monotheists in the Old Testament days - denying that signs of power, or even that signs of divinity, are worthy of worship:

7:10. So Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharoh, and did as the Lord had commanded. And Aaron took the rod before Pharoh and his servants, and it was turned into a serpent.

7:11. And Pharoh called the wise men and the magicians; and they also by Egyptian enchantments and certain secrets, did in like manner.

20:3. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

[Username17]

Yeah, actually if I see Hextor and Heironius stabbing each other with god blades for a while, devastating the countryside for miles around, and then I see them walk off with neither having bested the other, I'm in a pickle. In fact, I'm going to go on the wall. Even assuming for the moment that I don't chalk that up to the kind of crazy bullshit antics that 17th level characters get up to in that world, I'm never going to be able to accept the primacy of either god brother. There will always be lingering doubt that maybe Hextor was better or worse and I should be worshiping the other dude.

In short, what the Forgotten Realms asks of people is completely insane. Real gods walk the planet and smite shit. Plural gods. And you can see that and everyone knows that and discusses this fact at length. But you personally are supposed to go off and worship one god faithfully. You have to go act like a monotheist, not just in the absence of evidence like modern day Christians, but in light of direct contradictory evidence. You know Loviatar is real, but if you don't worship Selune as a faithful monotheist would you get spackled into the wall.

It's straight fucked. Every single vaguely reasonable person would get shoved into the wall of the faithless. Only truly insane fuckers would actually give 100% of their attention and devotion to a single god when there are other fucking gods who will actually talk to them in person over the course of their life.

"Nah, Mask is just an aspect of Bane. Mask isn't real, only Bane is real!"

-Username17

[Ganbare Gincun]

In many ways, Atheists in Forgotten Realms would be akin to the Monotheists in the Old Testament days - denying that signs of power, or even that signs of divinity, are worthy of worship.

Perhaps so, but I don't see any reasonable person adopting this stance - especially if they are a high-level adventurer. The adventuring life would more then likely reinforce the reality that the gods and their servants are quite real, have access to powers and spells that other spellcasters do not, and are not to be trifled with without the patronage of another deity.

I imagine an "atheist" character that died while adventuring would have quite an interesting time of it on the Fugue Plane while they wait to be raised from the dead. Nothing quite like sitting there watching the souls of the dead from all across the Forgotten Realms getting ferried off to their final resting places to inspire a bit of faith...

[Username17]

I imagine an "atheist" character that died while adventuring would have quite an interesting time of it on the Fugue Plane while they wait to be raised from the dead. Nothing quite like sitting there watching the souls of the dead from all across the Forgotten Realms getting ferried off to their final resting places to inspire a bit of faith...

Aside from the fact that evidence based assumptions are not faith by definition, there's the additional problem where in D&D cosmology you don't remember your time as a petitioner when you are raised.

So from the standpoint of the adventurer their time on Failrun ends on two occasions and one time they are brought back by someone claiming that it was the true, exclusive, and omnipotent power of Isis that returned them to life, and another time it was by someone claiming that it was the true and omnipotent power of Pelor that returned them to life. And then, with just that information they are expected to choose to truly and completely dedicate themselves to the worship of one or the other of those two gods (and not both). And if they hedge, even secretly, or doubt which one their loyalties are supposed to lie with, they are cast into the wall when they die and stay dead.

That setting is crazy fucked.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

The thing I don't understand is why that's even in the game.

No other pantheist setting is that insane. Not even Dragonlance is that evil and impossible and THAT pantheon is completelt bologna-fucked.

So why did they include that element? Some backhanded swipe at atheists?

[Ganbare Gincun]

It's straight fucked. Every single vaguely reasonable person would get shoved into the wall of the faithless. Only truly insane fuckers would actually give 100% of their attention and devotion to a single god when there are other fucking gods who will actually talk to them in person over the course of their life.

You can claim one particular god as your patron deity while offering prayers to and acknowledging the existence of other gods - they just don't get your soul when you die. It's a lot like choosing a political party or joining a social club, except that the group in question gets to draw on the power of your soul when you die. So if you're a peaceful farmer and one day Selune shows up in your field, you can chat with her or take her out to dinner or whatever without necessarily changing your patron deity. It's like if you hated anime and ran into a big-time anime voice actor at a party and had a conversation with them - just speaking with them doesn't mean that suddenly you're an anime fan.

But even if you were required to give 100% of your devotion to a single god, no one would get stuck in the wall - everyone would be declared as one of the False for recognizing the existence of the gods while showing insufficient allegiance to their patron deity. Their souls would end up in the City Of The Dead for all eternity and would either serve or suffer at Kelemvor's whim based on what kind of life they led.

[Koumei]

Yeah, that is completely fucked. I'm what counts as the FR fangirl here and I think it's a load of bollocks. But this of course isn't the only deity dickery in FR (although many are also guilty of that kind of shit. Which setting was the insane Mormon "good gods blow cities up" one?)

Solutions:
1. "This is stupid, let's play another setting. If you really like a FR god, then just frigging import them."

2. "This is stupid", and ignore that point. At this point you might want to start digging through for every stupid thing to change.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Aside from the fact that evidence based assumptions are not faith by definition

True - I should have put quotation marks around faith.

there's the additional problem where in D&D cosmology you don't remember your time as a petitioner when you are raised.

Do they specifically state that dead characters don't remember what happens in the afterlife when they are raised in the 3rd edition rules anywhere? They don't address it at all in the 3rd Edition campaign book.

[Ganbare Gincun]

The thing I don't understand is why that's even in the game.

No other pantheist setting is that insane. Not even Dragonlance is that evil and impossible and THAT pantheon is completelt bologna-fucked.

So why did they include that element? Some backhanded swipe at atheists?

They did it because 1) they wanted to be "different" and 2) yeah, probably to take a backhanded swipe at atheists. Because you know atheists are all horrific monsters that only live for the pleasure of gnawing the sweet, tender flesh from the bones of infants, right?