In Gods We Trust(?)

Mr. Bane · Post by **Mr. Bane** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:51 am

I was talking with Frank Trollman before he went to bed today and we were discussing Gods in the fantasy setting.

Most settings have "actual ephemeral omnipresent dudes you can talk to" and we both agreed that having them was a "bad idea".

Maybe it's because I'm agnostic bordering atheist but that kind of "oh hai Pelor" really ruins the setting for me.

We got into this discussion based on this, my FATE3 Generic Fantasy attempt. (The latin is filler for design)

As an aside, we agreed that Religion and Giant Monsters makes it more real and should be around.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:09 am

I believe actual gods around to talk to is not as bad an idea as many people think it is. Simply put, some people actually don't mind having such things around, and I have not seen a single argument against them that has been more than '*bullshit, handwave, scream, cry, whine, no gods*.

As a deist, I have no issues either way, but I would very much like to see why actual dudes as gods that you can chat to is a bad thing.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:10 am

I think that gods can add something to a fantasy setting, but I'm more interested in gods like Emperor Hirohito or King Kong than something ephemeral and omnipresent.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:11 am

I have nothing wrong with guys like Orcus who hang out on an extraplanar realm and are explicitly stab-able in the face...and is basically the same sort of 'god' that Catharz just posted about; they are basically Big Name adventurers. But when you start throwing in a separate and poorly defined set of rules for "gods", things start to get a bit wonky. At least, it has in Dungeons & Dragons.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:13 am

Surgo wrote:I have nothing wrong with guys like Orcus who hang out on an extraplanar realm and are explicitly stab-able in the face...and is basically the same sort of 'god' that Catharz just posted about; they are basically Big Name adventurers. But when you start throwing in a separate and poorly defined set of rules for "gods", things start to get a bit wonky. At least, it has in Dungeons & Dragons.

I agree, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with why the concept of actual gods that you can see, touch and talk to is a problem.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:23 am

I think gods should be much weaker, and in fact, should not be like the D&D ones, giving out spells and having a bunch of at will 9th level spells and immunities, to go with whatever HD they have.

They should be the most powerful people, not granting spells, but just anyone who figured out immortality (optional) and convinced people they are badass. Divine Ranks and all associated mechanics should be removed.

Mr. Bane · Post by **Mr. Bane** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:25 am

For me it just interferes with the setting, also it's way to fucking common. Like, I can name one source that didn't have gods in that category.

The Hobbit.

But then (a) god had to get all into it and be like, I SEEING YOU BIATCH. (Sauron).

It just ticks me off, maybe because I like down to earth adventurers or whatever, or maybe I like the idea of the God Emperor types from Warhammer40k.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:33 am

I personally have no problems with gods in a setting either. Like many things, it depends on how they're implemented.

I like gods because they're another level of extraplanar beings who want to fight each other which can lead to adventures and intrigues for the main characters.

Mr. Bane · Post by **Mr. Bane** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:35 am

"I like gods because they're another level of extraplanar beings who want to fight each other which can lead to adventures and intrigues for the main characters."

Maybe I'm pessimistic but I see that as adding another level of complication.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:43 am

Hmm, maybe we've had different experiences. Have you played Forgotten Realms much? In my adventures there, gods were a big deal and a big driver for our encounters. My character was a son of Bane, and a lot of his adventures dealt with the followers of other gods trying to stop or help him.

Good times. 8)

Sir Neil · Post by **Sir Neil** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:50 am

I remember Frank's posts about bionic Santa.

Mr. Bane · Post by **Mr. Bane** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:55 am

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:Have you played Forgotten Realms much?

Yeah, and it blew for a lot of reasons. One being that Forgotten Realms was a lot more like As the World Turns for gods.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:04 am

To each their own I guess. I apparently had good experiences and adventures while you had the opposite *shrug*

Mr. Bane · Post by **Mr. Bane** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:10 am

I'm no fool, I can totally see that as being something that happened.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:23 am

I'm honestly intrigued by the Discworld pantheon, as odd as that sounds.

For those who aren't familiar, there are actually billions upon billions of gods. But only a few achieve what we'd call godhood--and that achievement is when people believe in them. So when a god loses believers, it's weakened. A god with no believers is just a voice on the wind. But most gods are only really responsible for their areas--thunder, drama, lettuce, some profession or another--and aren't particularly bright, despite having a bundle of extra senses and a lot of power. Gods actually need people in this model--not the other way around. They may even directly communicate with you and do things that you can see but they're capricious, rather like the Greek gods.

But there's other beings which have what's considered godlike powers.

Anthropomorphic personifications (Death, Famine, the Tooth Fairy, Jack Frost, etc) have their own existence, but it seems to be different from godhood.

And then Creators appear to be the real business, having an intelligence and power beyond even the strongest gods and seem to move through the universe, making worlds.

Anyway, despite the ridiculousness of specific gods on Discworld, I rather like the men-create-gods model.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:43 am

Of course I want gods. Because they don't exist in real life. I want tree gods that make forests arise an ancient gods who played with the stars and are incomprehensible and gods who came from other planes to live atop mount olympus.

I want my setting to be fantastic, for a new level beyond king, some sort of power that may or may not be apex but has domain over some small space in omniscient ways. For a hope beyond the character, a position to aspire to or compete with.

-Crissa

On the other hand, I totally don't like the FR model which is competing monotheism; christianity blows in its god which is omnipresent and omniscient and certainly not benevolent. That's the last thing I want in my adventures.

Lich-Loved · Post by **Lich-Loved** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:05 am

No gods for me. I like the idea of extraplanar powerful beings (solars and templars, devils and demons) that struggle for the Fate of Mens' Souls for some inscrutable purpose or another, but not in the gods-as-powerul-people view. I guess I like to think of it as the real gods are dead or vanished or retreated behind the stars and pay no nevermind to all of the thrashing about on the Prime or elsewhere on the Wheel.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:28 am

There's no "I don't care" option. If the story doesn't suck with gods in it, then that's cool. If the story sucks with gods in it, then forget them.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:07 am

I voted no, but specifically only to gods as described in the OP ("O hi Pelor! How's the wife and kids? We haven't had lunch together in a week.") I have no problem with gods existing as tangible beings, as long as they don't constantly send their avatars into the world to get in everybody's business, like in some settings (*cough*FR*cough*). I'd prefer if actually fighting or collaborating with a god was a singular, legendary event in a high-level adventurer's career.

Mr. Bane · Post by **Mr. Bane** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:11 am

"There's no "I don't care" option"

This would be the option: Don't vote.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:36 am

I think the clincher for many is that, at the point that there isn't faith involved, it isn't really religion. At least not in a certain sense. In that case, you just have "divine beings" which people might worship the way fanatics might worship a king. Or Elvis. And that's fine too. There are certainly a lot of cool stories where you have demigods and gods walking around on earth.

Now, you can say that "well, the gods exist, but the average people can't demonstrate that. The average people can't go and meet Pelor and say "Hi Pelor." " And that's fine. In that case, there is faith. However, in that case, I would say that those kinds of things should be left ambiguous in any published setting. Eberron writer Keith Baker had the right of it with things like "Don't Map Xen'drik" and "We won't tell you what caused the Mourning" and so on and so forth. A published setting should serve as a framework within which a DM's own ideas and stories are facilitated, and leaving such questions unanswered gives the DM a lot more legroom.

So there it is. Unless you want to have a setting where you have people like Coyote or Morpheus or the Saint of Killers walking around doing stuff in plain sight of everyone, I say that you should not answer the question of whether or not there are gods for the players in the setting details. But if you want to have a setting where Coyote or Morpheus or the Saint of Killers is kinda the point, then "Hey, look, it's Pelor" is totally okay.

ludomastro · Post by **ludomastro** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:04 am

I voted "no" because of how the question was worded. Having a fantasy deity that is limited in some way - such as the Greek and Roman pantheons - is fine with me. Having a god that is all powerful and yet can't take out the all powerful guy next door, just seems to break the setting for me.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:08 am

I'd tend to go 2 routes with gods:
1. they are non-physical entities who are largely non-communitative and cryptic in what communication the do make. They are reliant on their followers to decipher and undertake their will. Followers follow them because they like the ideas they portray rather than any power being directly granted by them.

2. They are just the apex of the march of life. Anything can become a god by being successful enough. Gods fight each other and die all the time (one of the ways to become a god is to defeat an old one). They are not all knowing, all powerful and don't even necessarily need followers to sustain themselves. In this situation they are more like high level monster/NPCs than true gods.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:52 am

If gods are granting players power, then players will eventually be able to overcome them or they will not. If you can never match the gods, it brings up the standard question of why anything you do matters in the face of deific veto. If you can surpass them, it invalidates the concept of the cleric and begs the question as to why they exist at all.

In short, every god in your setting is an Elminster who you have to explain why they let you adventure. If they approve of your actions, you have to explain why they don't just do it themselves. If they do not approve, you must explain why they allow you to complete your adventures.

The FRCS doesn't become richer because it has the Symbul in it - it becomes harder to swallow. And Mystra herself is in the same position and for the same reason.

-Username17

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:01 am

Every setting has tropes in it that must be accepted for it to make some kind of sense.

In a setting with gods, the trope often is that the gods can't willy nilly interfere for some reason. Whether it means that there's an even greater over-deity saying "NO" or some mystical field that prevents them from interfering directly and forcing them to use intermediaries to achieve their goals (ex. Clerics)

I don't understand why being able to surpass a god invalidates the concept of a cleric. You used to worship a god for power, now you've grown enough power and are a god on your own.

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In Gods We Trust(?)

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In Gods We Trust(?)