Level 1 weaklings are bad?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:11 am

Okay, I just have to ask, why do so many people use the claim of 'in that system, you start out as a weakling killing rats but in OUR system you start out as a badass' as a selling point?

It's dumb, because you know why? YOU CAN START AT A HIGHER LEVEL THAN ONE.

DeadlyReed · Post by **DeadlyReed** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:17 am

I agree.

My D&D campaign assumes that heroes (PCs) range from 4th to 14th level. 1st to 3rd level are for unimportant people.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:20 am

Because lots of stupid people think you can't start a game at any level but one. And while you wouldn't want to play with those retards anyway, it's still annoying to go to an internet forum and find 200+ level 1 games and 0 level 10 games.

Oh yeah, and geography is even worse, because sometimes it's even worth playing with retards in person.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:00 am

It is still a sort of valid complaint in that low level D&D isn't just 'you suck' but 'the system sucks' (in a way completely different from high level D&D) its inclusion in the core rules is like ordering a pizza and getting a pizza with a side of shit. You can just not eat the shit but it being there is sort of off-putting.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:05 am

Yeah, the main problem is that the inclusion of those shit levels encourages people to think starting at level one is a good idea. It's because of this that I generally only get into a game by bullying someone into running it just for me and then bullying other people into playing it.

That shit wouldn't even happen if the first 5-7 levels just didn't exist in the game.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:49 am

It does seem like a lot of people automatically think "Level 1" when they're starting a new campaign. I mean, I can understand not wanting to start at 15 or 20, but what about level 5 at least?

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:14 am

I think level 1 & 2 are shit, not necessarily conceptually but mechanically. Too quick to die, not interesting to play (not enough interesting actions). By level 3 you are starting to have options and aren't necessarily gonna be insta-killed. I do like the idea of being able to play where people start as almost nobodies and work their way up, That could be done without making level 1 & 2 suck. WoTC and D&D just seem to be incapable of doing it.

I also don't find the game interesting past maybe level 12. Spell lists become unwieldy, swordmen have become completely irrelevant and the game is no longer representing the stories that its pregenerated game worlds should be telling or that I have read about in all but a few of the fantasy literature I've read.

I kind of think the E6 people got it half right, you only have a few levels that are the sweet spot, they just don't include D&D levels 1&2.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:40 am

Because authors of D&D do not recognize that at some point DnD at levels 1-2 became quite different game than DnD at levels 3+ and do not warn readers that hey, if you want play badass who kicks the door in, as opposed to a fragile character who must be much more cautious (or more lucky) to survive, you better start at level 3-4.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:49 am

I can't recall starting a pen and paper campaign at level 1, ever. It was always level 3 or 4 or higher - and that goes back to AD&D 2E.

TavishArtair · Post by **TavishArtair** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:55 am

I pretty much agree with ckafrica. The D&D system isn't really designed for a level 1 player character to be that interesting, which is the real reason why level 1 sucks. So if a system makes its starting characters interesting, then I'll be much more interested.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:57 am

On the other hand if the system starts at level 4, then those who want to play level 1 characters are forced to make up rules.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:59 am

ckafrica wrote: I also don't find the game interesting past maybe level 12. Spell lists become unwieldy, swordmen have become completely irrelevant and the game is no longer representing the stories that its pregenerated game worlds should be telling or that I have read about in all but a few of the fantasy literature I've read.

I kind of think the E6 people got it half right, you only have a few levels that are the sweet spot, they just don't include D&D levels 1&2.

Yeah, this is the big problem with 3.5, is that the sweet spots just aren't big enough. Most of the games levels are either boring or just plain unplayable.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:36 am

I love 1st and 2nd level play. Everyone can pull off all the bullshit combat maneuvers and really think outside the box because the numbers haven't had time to diverge enough to push you off the RNG.

Wizards run around with small numbers of mass death spells, and a Fighter can move and swing his glaive to one-hit all but the strongest enemies. It's like playing at 18th level without all the bullshit. If you're going to play in a Rocket Launcher Tag scenario in the first place, it should be like 1st and 2nd level D&D.

-Username17

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:45 am

Count me in the enjoying level 1 play. Sure you don't have much in the way of options besides the base combat stuff, but you get that later anyway. 1st level is about surviving to be the badass. My only issue is when I had one DM that dragged those first few levels out. XP was miserly, and it took forever to get up to even fourth level. On the other hand, it felt like an accomplishment by then, managing to survive his BS DNS playstyle.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:46 am

FrankTrollman wrote:I love 1st and 2nd level play. Everyone can pull off all the bullshit combat maneuvers and really think outside the box because the numbers haven't had time to diverge enough to push you off the RNG.

Wizards run around with small numbers of mass death spells, and a Fighter can move and swing his glaive to one-hit all but the strongest enemies. It's like playing at 18th level without all the bullshit. If you're going to play in a Rocket Launcher Tag scenario in the first place, it should be like 1st and 2nd level D&D.

-Username17

That's something I haven't considered before. Seen like that, those levels could be fun (I play Shadowrun, so RLT is nothing bad IMHO).

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:33 pm

Except ya know, since it dies in one hit anyways you should stop fucking around and just stab it in the face.

Level 1 and 2 is boring as shit. You die randomly and without warning, and don't even get anything cool to offset this. At least at high levels the fact you're a world shaking badass offsets, and justifies the whole Iterative Probability thing. Also, at that level you can actually deal with it, via revival spells, getting your defenses up to minimize the chances of being auto killed every round, etc.

At low levels you can't do anything to influence or change your fate.

I usually start at 3-5, at the minimum. MW annoys the fuck out of me, because 99% of the games there are level 1, and will never see level 2. They're even more obsessed with it than the usual.

I want my characters to actually do shit I care about. If I wanted to be a mook doing mook things, I have this neat system called 'Earth' for that.

See, the thing is: Fantasy is optional. Because you don't have to fucking partake of it, if it's not better than reality it objectively serves no purpose. Since everyone is a mook in reality, this means fantasy games need to make you better than a mook. Full fucking stop. Otherwise you'll just say fuck it and find a game you actually want to play.

Amra · Post by **Amra** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:06 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:I love 1st and 2nd level play. Everyone can pull off all the bullshit combat maneuvers and really think outside the box because the numbers haven't had time to diverge enough to push you off the RNG.

Wizards run around with small numbers of mass death spells, and a Fighter can move and swing his glaive to one-hit all but the strongest enemies. It's like playing at 18th level without all the bullshit. If you're going to play in a Rocket Launcher Tag scenario in the first place, it should be like 1st and 2nd level D&D.

-Username17

Seconded. I'm playing in a game that started at 1st level and we've just hit 2nd (rather quickly, but there you go). The Barbarian's damage really *means* something, and my battlefield control spells are really killer because nobody has any bullshit ways of getting around them. Everyone by necessity has to come up with creative ways of using the abilities they have. It's all good.

There's no way you could describe our party as mooks. Through a combination of good tactics and careful character-building - or 'powergaming' if you prefer - we're taking out enemies that ought, on paper at least, to make us eat our own heads.

But then, that's very much down to play-style and whether or not the encounter design is up to snuff. I've also played in low-level games where the character turnover rate was phenomenal and nobody ever bothered rounding out their characters properly because they had the life expectancy of glass tennis racquets.

Done well, low-level play can be a lot of fun; but if the DM's pulling apparently-level-appropriate monsters straight out of the MM without stopping to sanity-check their abilities, you will indeed end up as Giant Crab food in short order. Methinks this is one of those YMMV situations.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:14 pm

I like the low levels too.

Some time out past 6th level somewhere I begin to get annoyed with a lot of the bloat and changes in the flow of the game. Give me levels 1-3 any day. They are great.

It's one of the reasons I'm getting a bit annoyed with the idea of level systems in general.

PS. Context of 3rd edition of course. Though I have to say with Frank and K's tomes... still the same on this front.

Amra · Post by **Amra** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:28 pm

I admit, I'm sort of enjoying watching the martial characters strut their stuff. The Shifter Barbarian doing her thing is a sight to behold with me dropping an Enlarge Person on her in the first round and putting the bad guys on their arses with a Sculpted Grease in the second round so she can get some use out of her combat reflexes.

I'll do my damndest to make sure that everyone gets their screen time as we level up, but it's hard when you realise that in a few levels' time the damage the melee types are dishing out will hardly matter and the most effective tactic will be getting them to stand in front of me and soak up pain while I kill everyone with my mind. In the meantime however, it's a joyous exercise in effective teamwork, just as it should be.

No, *individual* characters can't kick down the door and expect to live through it, but with tight cooperation a *party* still can.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:49 pm

Properly built melee sorts, aka not plain beatsticks still work at high levels. It's harder to make them, but again there's actually something to be gained in return for just randomly falling over and dying with nothing you can do about it.

You do need real defenses, but at least you actually have them now, so you can auto attack for 250 or more and maybe actually kill something.

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:11 pm

Amra wrote:but it's hard when you realise that in a few levels' time the damage the melee types are dishing out will hardly matter and the most effective tactic will be getting them to stand in front of me and soak up pain while I kill everyone with my mind.

The damage will still matter, it just gets harder and harder to actually pull it off between flying and burrowing monsters, stuff that attacks out to 40 feet, concealment, invisibility, fear auras, interrupt actions and battlefield control effects. Especially if you also want to keep up your defenses against the crazy shit thats happening.

But the actual damage is fine. Pretty much anything that gets hit by a level 10+ charger dies instantly. Anything that allows a serious fighter to get a full attack in is either a Godzilla type monster or explodes into fine red mist.

A level 10 Orc Barbarian/Fighter with a 30 Strength (with Rage), a keen greataxe (+3 with GMW), some bullshit way to get an extra attack and say, +5 in bonus damage will most likely deal 90+ damage to anyone standing before him. That is about the dumbest, most straightforward character you can build and he still oneshots all casters and most outsiders of CR 10. At level 11 he gets another attack on top of it. I'm pretty sure even mild optimizing will up the damage to at least 150.

It's just that he will probably take 2 or 3 turns to get in position for that full attack, at which time the fight is over anyways, or at least decided. About the only chance he has of actually seeing his damage potential is Dominate Person.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:27 pm

Swooping Dragon Strike is very effective, especially the stun part of it, in setting up a full attack (if the target is still alive).

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:46 pm

If he gets it at all. What caster isn't just going to real defense him? Sure, if they don't they die, but that's all the more reason to press the fuck you button.

As for damage, that only matters if you do it with certain builds. Otherwise HP do inflate too fast, and the enemy seriously doesn't care about being scratched for piddly shit.

Amra · Post by **Amra** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:55 pm

Murtak wrote:
Amra wrote:but it's hard when you realise that in a few levels' time the damage the melee types are dishing out will hardly matter and the most effective tactic will be getting them to stand in front of me and soak up pain while I kill everyone with my mind.
The damage will still matter, it just gets harder and harder to actually pull it off between flying and burrowing monsters, stuff that attacks out to 40 feet, concealment, invisibility, fear auras, interrupt actions and battlefield control effects. Especially if you also want to keep up your defenses against the crazy shit thats happening.

But the actual damage is fine.

[snipped damage exposition]

It's just that he will probably take 2 or 3 turns to get in position for that full attack, at which time the fight is over anyways, or at least decided. About the only chance he has of actually seeing his damage potential is Dominate Person.

Well, yes, that's what I was talking about; apologies for not being clear. You certainly can build a melee character that can drop serious critters in a couple of blows; the reason that damage doesn't matter is that unless the DM is being kind, that couple of blows will never happen.

There are too many powers and abilities later in the game that make you more-or-less immune to "being hit with a sword", at which point the teamwork elements go out of the door. Or at least, the balance of power in the team swings drastically in favour of the spellcasters. It's at high levels that many players are relegated to the status of "mooks", because the ability to engage with an opponent becomes more important than what you do when you have. The spellcasters almost always can, and the Conan types almost always can't.

I saw a very sad example of this in glorious technicolour during a campaign I ran from levels 1-20+ that de facto finished a few months ago. The party Ranger actually managed to stay effective into the early teen levels, but all the shit he picked up later on like being the Bane of This and the Deadly Meat-Grinder of That almost never saw any play. He spent more combats than I care to think about charging between one enemy and the next trying to get a full attack in; it was sad to watch. Eventually, he said "fuck this", retired the character and statted up a Cleric [1]

Naturally, a caring-sharing kind of DM will try to throw in the odd magic-immune bullshit monster to keep Mr. Stabby entertained, but actually there's pretty much sod-all you can do about it; the casters are just too capable.

Not only that, but in the space of a round or two a mid-level caster can become way more effective in melee than a mid-level warrior, which further pushes the sword-swingers into the role of "something for the bad guys to exercise their mojo on while the casters do something that matters".

Le sigh.

[1] Which, yes, promptly won D&D

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:17 pm

Yea, full attacks are crazy-hard to pull off on any regular basis when the monster has any sort of movement ability.

Low-level D&D is very fun, and one of those reasons if because it is deadly. At level 2 as a wizard, you know you might survive about 1 arrow. Maybe 2, on a good day. At level 1 as a fighter, you have the highest BAB of the party, and can move up a monster and hit it with your strongest attack, without taking an AoO.

I also like the bullshit brought in, for instance:
A heavy crossbow is a level 2 death machine available to every character.
A vial of Acid WILL burn someone's face off.
Poison still has meaning (DC 13 means something).
Everyone doesn't suck with the 'hit things' option. If you start your character with a strength of 12, you can hit things with the best of them. At level 13 someone if you don't have full BAB or a way to cheat it you may as well not bother hitting things with a sword every again, and that makes us sad. I like seeing the Elven Wizard stab something with a rapier, and the Cleric Heavy crossbow the monsters.
Things like "additional attack" really mean something. Rapid Shot at level 3 is a powerful ability. Rapid Shot at level 12 is something you wouldn't blow 5000 gold for unless you had a secondary damage source.

But the big one is: you are free to make mistakes at this level. A build like:
Human Wizard 3 - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus(quarterstaff) with 12 stength.
OR
Gnome Rogue 3 - Rapid Reload, Lesser Dragonmark
OR
Elven Ranger 3 - Skill Focus (Survival), Weapon Focus(Valenar Double Scimitar)
don't suck. Everyone sucks. You can flat out ignore combat effectiveness, and take things like House Favorite that add fun things to your character and sabotage a 11th level build.

I mean Skill Focus (Survival) assures your level 3 character that he will be able to hunt for the party if thy run out of food. This is a cool ability that I have never seen anyone take, ever. I have never seen someone take Skill Focus (ANYTHING other than Concentration), and that makes me sad.