I'm not sure where to put this.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:01 pm

Some douchebag wrote:I was a mean DM.

If players got TOO creative with anything, I had a list of possible 'sitautions' that could happen, with a percentile die.Seriously I had a table with subdivisions for areas and environments and everything.I called it my "NO U" die.

One time, I had my players on a room that had a BIG chasm, and a another platform on the other side.There was a lever on the FAAAR side of the room, on the other platform that extended a bridge.On the bottom of the chasm was a deep magma tram, boiling hot . There was a conveyor belt near the middle on the chasm, that had these bit metal pots carry magma from one side of the room to the other into paths to other room, which were made for the pots.Players were supposed to get to the pots, make some checks, not fall into magma, and then on the other side, make some jumps and get to the other platform.

Easy piecy, a few DC 10 checks, maybe one 15, and crazy players would have a 18-20.No biggie.

Wizard decides to just send his fucking Mephit familiar to pull the level.Pissed, I roll on my table. It said "Mechanical Bad Shit happens".

I made these turrents descend from the ceiling , firing bolts at the Mephit. Mephit died, and the scenario got much harder.The Turrents where still active, firing at players.

Mwahahaha.

Well, that's something else.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:08 pm

Can you please link to this thread so I can in the future prove my point that there are a bunch of incredibly shitty DMs. I assume it's a whole thread full of failtards crowing about those times they were huge dicks, and that therefore, this DM was given rousing praise.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:14 pm

It's on /tg/, so you'll have to screencap: http://zip.4chan.org/tg/res/4369407.html

Actually, people jumped on him for being a twat.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:39 pm

Sounds like a 4.Fail fan.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:45 pm

Uh, why? There's nothing in that post that says it's 3e or 4e.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:02 pm

Surgo wrote:Uh, why? There's nothing in that post that says it's 3e or 4e.

Punishing players for creativity. Though it is edition non specific for the most part, it is the 4.Fail mindset, and is thus a likely 4.Fail fan.

Also, it almost sounds like a 'Skill Challenge' from the way it is referenced.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:06 pm

Roy wrote:it almost sounds like a 'Skill Challenge' from the way it is referenced.

or just a short series of skill checks...

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:14 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:
Roy wrote:it almost sounds like a 'Skill Challenge' from the way it is referenced.
or just a short series of skill checks...

Thus, almost.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:48 pm

He was definitely playing 3.5 in the example, because in 4e your familiar can't even flip a switch.

But Roy is right in that the mindset of: "Players using cool abilities to bypass challenges in ways I didn't think of is WRONG!"

A further example he gave is:

1) If a door opens and undead start coming out, and then the Wizard casts Wall of Iron to block them in, what I do is instantly have some random skeleton boss tear through the wall like cardboard and start the fight. Because it would be really unfun if I just made it so the skeletons had to go around through a different door, or had to actually use the rules to do damage to the wall and take it down in a couple rounds, because after all, if the Wizard can use Wall of Iron to beat an encounter, or even to buy time to leave, then it isn't as much fun as rolling dice for an hour.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:13 pm

I'm guessing paraphrased for the lulz.

But seriously. He can't even fucking do it right.

Assuming the minimum level to cast the spell, we're looking at a CL of 12 with assumed +1 item, and thus 120 HP and Hardness 10. Exactly how hard is it to do that much damage at level 11+? Exactly. Or they can try DC 33 Strength checks... note that size modifiers apply.

That's not a good way to even fucking slow them down, because of the actual fucking rules.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:02 am

Roy wrote:I'm guessing paraphrased for the lulz.

But seriously. He can't even fucking do it right.

Assuming the minimum level to cast the spell, we're looking at a CL of 12 with assumed +1 item, and thus 120 HP and Hardness 10. Exactly how hard is it to do that much damage at level 11+? Exactly. Or they can try DC 33 Strength checks... note that size modifiers apply.

That's not a good way to even fucking slow them down, because of the actual fucking rules.

The problem was, he actually said that he didn't want to let the spell even buy them a single round.

Exact quotes:

fuckity fuckster wrote:You DONT know how much i hated spells like Desintegrate, Wall of Stone/Iron, Wall of Force,Prismatic Spells, Pass Through Stone, and so many others.

It mantains a dungeon being what it is...a challenge.

fuckity fuckster wrote:Like seeing a horde of undead bning released, and the Wizard just casts Wall of IRON to trap them forever on the room they came from.They'll never manage to tear down the wall, even if BALORIMUS the Ancient Skeletal Guard of the Old Temples was there

It's so anti-climatic..

I'd rather have Balorimus rip a hole in that Wall of Iron with a badass magical weapon, and make a hole for himself. players get intimidated, Balorimus looks cool, battle resumes.

If they win, they also get Balorimus's new badass weapon.

They have fun,get loot...isnt that the whole point?

At this point someone demonstrates that it's easy to break through a wall in a couple rounds, or that the wall could be pushed over, so then:

fuckity fuckster wrote:So, it looks COOLER if "BALORIMUS busts epically through the Iron Wall, slashing and tearing through it, with a primal scream of rage with a glowing weapon in his hands, as metal shards fly everywhere, as he announces his threat."

He's there- he's scary!

Fight!

Not well, "BALORIMUS rolls poorly. The wall doesnt go down, but it moved a bit.The other undead kinda flail at the wall, and you hear tinkling on the iron.Your turn."

See guys, it's wrong for a poor roll on the part of the monster to allow the casting of level fucking six spell to buy a single round of time for the party. They need to not be allowed to use their spells to buy time. Glitterdust is also unfun.

Or as one poster put it: "fuck the dice and rules if I don't like what they say happens."

He justifies everything by saying:

fuckity fuckster wrote:A easily defeated challenge is no challenge at all, you know- doesnt it make sense to keep em entertained?To keep em' having fun?

about fuckity fuckster wrote:Your definition of "easy" seems to be "anything where brains rather than dice are involved". You're forcing the players into a single DM-approved solution rather than letting them think for themselved.

sake · Post by **sake** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:04 am

Ugh... saw this shit while following the arcane power scan- err, that thread that was wonderful example of how WotC's plan to kill pdf sales only delayed Arcane Power being pirated by a few days and actually lost them legit sales they might have gotten otherwise.

I kind of wonder why he doesn't just make bloody NWN modules and run those for his friends, since that's exactly what he seems to want out of D&D.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:10 am

sake wrote:I kind of wonder why he doesn't just make bloody NWN modules and run those for his friends, since that's exactly what he seems to want out of D&D.

"The door is locked with unpickable mechanisms that are immune to simple spells."

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:26 am

"I press ` and open the console. I then use it to teleport to my destination, and give myself 999 in every stat while I'm at it."

sake · Post by **sake** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:35 am

Koumei wrote: "The door is locked with unpickable mechanisms that are immune to simple spells."

Good god... just reading that phrase again fills me with so much rage...

Is it odd that while I don't really much care for 4ed, I am really looking forward to the first decent D&D video game to use it?

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:49 am

There will always be morons and bad DMs out there, big surprise.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:27 am

Because as we all know, level 11+ is just like level 1, except with bigger numbers so 'a dungeon' is actually still a challenge. Except oh wait, it ISN'T because the game changes fundamentally every few levels. Fail.

Oh yeah, funny thing. Wall of Force? Yeah, it's lower level. It's also harder to break. Wonder what sort of utter Fail he'd come up with for that.

Also, this is why I despise freeform, as it gets wankers like that. Who then get into my D&D, and try to use it to trick people into playing under the pretense they're actually fucking using the fucking rules.

That other guy got it right. He defines easy as anything that doesn't involve grinding on the MOB - classic 4.Fail behavior. Thus he is a 4.Fail fan, even if he does not yet know it as the Pocket Cat edition is clearly far more relevant to his interests. As an added bonus, it gets him the fuck away from me. That's the one good thing about 4.Fail - it's an idiot filter. And that's extremely useful to have.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:41 am

Roy wrote:Oh yeah, funny thing. Wall of Force? Yeah, it's lower level. It's also harder to break. Wonder what sort of utter Fail he'd come up with for that.

Probably "just as you cast some spear/stone/twig/rat enters the area where the wall of force will be formed, and thus the spell fails."

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:42 am

Because as we all know, level 11+ is just like level 1, except with bigger numbers so 'a dungeon' is actually still a challenge. Except oh wait, it ISN'T because the game changes fundamentally every few levels. Fail.

See, that's what I don't get about 4e. Sure, adventures like that can be fun, but you know what's lame? Having to roll to climb walls for more than a few levels. There comes a point when the PCs should be able to move beyond the really crappy adventures that challenge low-level characters. And that's why riding on horseback for 30 levels sucks.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:52 pm

sake wrote:
Koumei wrote: "The door is locked with unpickable mechanisms that are immune to simple spells."
Good god... just reading that phrase again fills me with so much rage...

Is it odd that while I don't really much care for 4ed, I am really looking forward to the first decent D&D video game to use it?

Not really. Thats actually a format where 4e works. Most D&D computer games have cut or gutted the complex abilities and interactions anyway, so a game where they are already eliminated is tailor made for the current generation of brainless semi-crpgs.

Amra · Post by **Amra** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:01 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:Sure, adventures like that can be fun, but you know what's lame? Having to roll to climb walls for more than a few levels.

I tend to agree, but with caveats. It sucks to have to roll to climb walls for more than a few levels if your character is one that ought to be good at climbing walls. I've got no problem with a high-level character who has never scaled anything more challenging than a staircase having to make a roll for it if for some reason they find themselves in the position of having to climb a wall without magical assistance. Really high-level characters can still fail at really basic things in 3.x, and that's OK if they're not supposed to be good at them.

The fail comes in when an ice-slippery mountain path that was barely passable at 1st level is *still* barely passable at 20th level because the DC has been set higher to match your improved level of skill.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:40 pm

Amra wrote:I tend to agree, but with caveats. It sucks to have to roll to climb walls for more than a few levels if your character is one that ought to be good at climbing walls. I've got no problem with a high-level character who has never scaled anything more challenging than a staircase having to make a roll for it if for some reason they find themselves in the position of having to climb a wall without magical assistance. Really high-level characters can still fail at really basic things in 3.x, and that's OK if they're not supposed to be good at them.

The fail comes in when an ice-slippery mountain path that was barely passable at 1st level is *still* barely passable at 20th level because the DC has been set higher to match your improved level of skill.

I think his point is that a level 12 adventurer should be able to climb walls, or have alternative means of scaling, such as flight, airwalk, teleporting, earthgliding.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:05 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Amra wrote:I tend to agree, but with caveats. It sucks to have to roll to climb walls for more than a few levels if your character is one that ought to be good at climbing walls. I've got no problem with a high-level character who has never scaled anything more challenging than a staircase having to make a roll for it if for some reason they find themselves in the position of having to climb a wall without magical assistance. Really high-level characters can still fail at really basic things in 3.x, and that's OK if they're not supposed to be good at them.

The fail comes in when an ice-slippery mountain path that was barely passable at 1st level is *still* barely passable at 20th level because the DC has been set higher to match your improved level of skill.
I think his point is that a level 12 adventurer should be able to climb walls, or have alternative means of scaling, such as flight, airwalk, teleporting, earthgliding.

what about a house rule like "if the character has 5 or more ranks above the actual DC, he auto-succeeds?"

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:11 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:what about a house rule like "if the character has 5 or more ranks above the actual DC, he auto-succeeds?"

Um... He already automatically succeeds if he has a 10str and as many ranks as the DC -1. 1s aren't always failures on skills.

The point is that a level 20 Wizard shouldn't have to have any ranks in climb to be epically too good to ever concern himself with a damn wall.

And that's the point.

In 3e they are. They can fly/teleport/earthglide or just summon a giant bitch to carry them and climb for them. 1) In 4e they can't. 2) In the version of 3e this guy wants to play, Wizards that fly over chasms instead of jumping and swinging from mining cart rails are bad, even at level 20. And that's fucking retarded.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:40 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:what about a house rule like "if the character has 5 or more ranks above the actual DC, he auto-succeeds?"
Um... He already automatically succeeds if he has a 10str and as many ranks as the DC -1. 1s aren't always failures on skills.

good point, didn't think about that.

In 3e they are. They can fly/teleport/earthglide or just summon a giant bitch to carry them and climb for them. 1) In 4e they can't. 2) In the version of 3e this guy wants to play, Wizards that fly over chasms instead of jumping and swinging from mining cart rails are bad, even at level 20. And that's fucking retarded.

I think what this guy really should be doing (other than learning how to DM and not be a douchebag) is running a low magic game with no casters. He seems to want a Swords and Sandles game, rather Swords and Sorcery.