The Gaming Den

Hi there. After the fiasco of the Black Dragon, I've decided to put together a thread of monsters in this edition that punch way above their weight class or cause effects that cause the game to implode.

I'm just going to do monsters heroic-tier characters might expect to fight right now, because that's before padded sumo really kicks in. Now, there are definitely some problematic monsters beyond that point, but really, most people play in heroic tier.

My big reason for doing this is because there's a meme being circulated that 4E is more balanced--as in, as long as you follow the given guidelines you can have a viable party no matter what. This is complete bullshit of course, especially once you start looking at the monster section.

Angel of Valor (Pg 16) (Level 8 Solder): Flies, has an AC of 24 (26 while bloodied) and makes two attacks; also while it's bloodied its attacks target reflexes instead. Marginally overpowered for its level; a team of four angels of valor will pretty much ice anyone who is not a battlerager fighter in two or three rounds.

Banshrae Dartswarmer (Pg 25) (Level 11 Artillery): They have a close burst (5) daze that recharges from 4-6 and hands out an attack penalty. Dazes really fuck up melee PCs at this point in the game because a monster can just shift backwards one square after attacking and there's not a fucking thing the PC can do about it.

Rot Scarab Swarm (Pg 30) (Level 8): Has 88 hit points, takes half damage from melee and ranged attacks and attacks twice per round against anything adjacent to it. Two of them trying to swarm one character will probably cause a TPK against someone who isn't a battlerager, especially since their attack is +12 versus reflex.

Beholder Eye of Flame (Pg 32, Level 13 Elite Artillery): Gets an attack against EVERY person within five squares of them. though thankfully it's with a random ray. But as a minor action they can put a Central Eye Flame Curse Rainbow on them, which gives them vulnerability to fire 10 and ongoing 5 fire damage if they get hit with a fire power (save ends both). So here's how combat goes:

Beholder Eye of Flame flies upwards 5 squares but still within aura reach of the people he hates and laughs at the melee bastards. Beholder then targets the healerest-looking member of the party, hits them with the Central Eye power (which doesn't even have an attack roll) and shoots a Fire Ray at them then action points and does it again. If both hit--and they probably WILL since it's a +17 attack versus reflex, the power does a whopping 50 fire damage like this and the person takes another 15 ongoing damage at the start of their turn and another 25 damage if the third attack hits.

By the way, did I mention that this is just an Elite monster and there's still 3 more monsters about to gangbang anyone lucky enough to survive the opening salvo?

Chuul (pg 43, level 10 soldier): These things aren't that bad when they're by themselves. However, if you have the misfortune to fight them in groups of three or more, they will pretty much insta-gib you in two rounds. Why? Well, they have a standard action that makes two claw attacks of reach two: +17 vs. AC. The damage is only 1d6+6, so, not too bad. But if the creature is immobilized (the creature makes a secondary attack at +14 vs. fortitude if both claws hit), the damage spikes to 3d6+6 damage, or, 16.5 damage per claw swing. So what happens is some poor bastard, probably the defender, gets immobilized and then three chuuls assrape him and work their way to the rest of the party. God help you if the DM is running nothing but chuuls.

Dark Stalker (page 49, level 10 lurker): Okay, so they do 17.5 damage on a hit to enemies they have combat advantage against, which they will, since they have two very easy ways to do it. However, where things get REALLY shitty is that they have a very large area burst (burst 4) which creatures a zone of darkness, though not magical darkness, that they can sustain as a minor action. Once again, if you're fighting only one of them, it's not that bad, but a group of three or four of them can pretty much cover any indoor battlefield.

If that's not enough when they die they autoblind (save ends) any creature that starts next to them and can turn invisible as a minor action even if you manage to thwart the Killing Dark. It recharges on a 3 to 6, so, good luck with that.

Destrachan (page 59) (Level 9 Artillery): See the Banshrae, only this thing is lower level and their power recharges faster.

Succubus (Page 67) (Level 9 Controller): The succubus once again has the problem of being another one of those monsters which assrape the party if you encounter then in groups of three or more. Regardless, it just stunlocks a party member and keeps them occupied while her buddies finish off the rest of the party. Then they turn on the poor suckered-in fool.

Spirit Devourer (page 68) (Level 11 Elite Soldier): This monster can easily have an AC of 29; meanwhile it stunlocks a foe, regains 20 hitpoints per round, and dishes out 28 to 36 damage to anyone who is stunlocked. I really hope that you have several people in your party that can do radiant damage, otherwise you're just fucked. And as the icing on the ass-shaped cake anyone it kills can't be returned to life by the Raise Dead ritual. I thought we got rid of this Gygaxian bullshit?

Displacer Beast (page 70) (Level 9 Skirmisher): Okay, this monster gets three attacks (2x 1d6+4 and a 1d10+4) if it has combat advantage, shifts as a free action on a miss, and all melee and ranged attacks have a 50% chance of missing. It's really not all that bad by itself or even in a team of identical monsters (the party just clusters together) but if you pair this fucking monster up with, say, a Destrachan then you are really fucked.

Young/Adult Black Dragon (page 75) (Level 4 and 11 Solo Lurkers): I've already ranted about this monster.

Needlefang Drake Swarm (page 90) (level 2 Soldier): This monster is so infamous that people besides me have noticed it. But anyway, here is its attack routine:

It uses TWO minor actions if it has to (+7 vs. fortitude) to knock a foe prone. It then uses it's melee basic attack at +10 vs. AC to dish out 2d10+4 damage. Then the poor bastard (who is still prone) gets another attack against them. It's also a swarm, too, so all of your attacks do half-damage unless it's a close or area attack. And guess what, since you're only level 2, guess how many you have? Did I mention that they're also Soldiers so have arbitrarily higher defenses?

A level 2 party facing just two of these fucking things will probably experience a TPK unless they're Mongol Archers. They have a speed of 7 so you're not outrunning these fuckers either...

Drow Warrior (page 94, level 11 Lurker): Speaking of Mongol Archers, guess who's waiting to fuck you over? These guys. You fail two saving throws against their attacks and you're unconscious. For the rest of the encounter

Eladrin Twilight Incanter (page 102, level 8 Controller): They're not all that tough, really, but I find them hilarious because they're strictly better characters than real honest-to-god non-orbizards. They have an At-Will that immobilizes and also have a 5-6 recharge that blinds in a close blast 3. Can I trade in my level 8 warlock to play this NPC? No? Well, then, FUCK YOU.

Ghoul (page 118, level 5 soldier): Okay, so, it's a level 5 monster that has an AC of 21. It's also really fast, climbs, and also has a standard attack that is very accurate but doesn't do all that much damage. 1d6+4.

But it immobilizes you. And after you're immobilized, it gets a NEW attack, a 3d6+4 attack. And you're stunned (save ends). Welcome to TPK-ville, jackasses. I really hope you have a laser cleric in your corner pocket. Otherwise you're double-fucked. Hell, you still might be fucked, since level 5 laser clerics typically have an attack bonus of about +6 to +9.

(reserved for Ferris Bueller)

(reserved for Michael Caine)

(reserved for Rex Reed--I mean Racquel Welsh. I mean Myra Breckinridge. I MEAN JOHN CARRADINE)

Lago PARANOIA wrote: The succubus once again has the problem of being another one of those monsters which assrape the party if you encounter then in groups of three or more.

I don't think I really need to say anything at this point.

I can't tell you how happy I am that you noticed that vulgar pun.

The BBEG of Thunderspire Labyrinth turns invisible as an immediate interrupt when targeted.

It makes the fight last longer, Torko.

And longer fights = better fights, amirite?

Gibbering Orb.

Ugh.

Quite possibly the most unfun fight I've had in my gaming history.

I thought about the Gibbering Mouther (you mean Mouther, right? The orb is the high-level bastard and that's beyond the scope of this thread) but didn't put it in. Why?

Because you could thwart it with some beeswax. I don't know whether you were supposed to do it or not but I don't give a care.

I was talking about the Orb, in direct violation of your original post. Muahahahaha, you can't stop me! The Orb is annoying what with the weird eye ray aura and crap.

In general the solo monsters in the book are usually poorly designed, either overcompensatory or insufficient to challenge a party.

Nice breakdown of the Fail. What ratio is that of the total MOBs?

Couple that you missed:

Dark Creeper (Skirmisher 4): In addition to having the Killing Dark power of its big brother the Dark Stalker, Dark Creepers attack for 1d4+1d6+4 damage to anyone they combat advantage against, and as a Move action, they can move 4 and gain CA against anyone they end up next to. Alone, they're worthless, but swarms of 4-6 of them can envelope a character and gank for 10 damage each. At level 4, that's lots of damage.

Mad Wraith (Controller 6): Autodazes all PCs within 3 squares. It is insubstantial (so all attacks hit for half damage) and has a reasonably large number of hit points. It's primary attack weakens and gains bonus damage if the wraith has CA, and it usually does. 1 of these is a pain to fight; 2 of these tends to be murderous. Bringing a cleric helps but probably not enough.

You also forgot the Vampire Lord (level 11 Elite Lurker), every bit as ill-conceived as the Spirit Devourer.

It has an AC of 29. Do the math for the kind of + to hit a level 10 character would have to hit to see how wrong that is...now toss in regeneration 10 (which only sunlight can stop), along with Blood Drain (to get back hit points, 46 at a time) and Second Wind (weee! more hit points), and, basically, vastly more abilities than the lvl14 Mind Flayer (along with better armor and more hit points).

Alone, this is a miserable grind-fest...with allies? A brutally long miserable grind-fest.

Not quite as overbalanced as some of these, as it's more of a synergy between monsters than either one being overbalanced:

My last 4e session saw that a couple of Satyr Rakes with a couple of Harpies can be pretty tough for an appropriately leveled PC party that's not range-focused. With both Daze (vs Fort) and Immobilize (vs Will) as Area of Effect options the harpies can make it difficult to close with the satyr archers.

Then the satyrs' combat advantage kicks in big time against anyone dazed - since monster Combat Advantage does not seem to have the PC Sneak Attack once/round limit - so Harrying Attack can be used to make two attacks each averaging 15.5 damage. With two (or more) Rakes unloading on the first victim of Deadly Screech, that's a one-round KO for nearly any level 6-7 PC. With two (or more) Harpies, it's also very possible that the party healer has been pulled/immobilized/dazed too far to get to the pincushioned character.

Isn't the Young White Dragon (Level 3 Solo Brute) problematic as well? The sonofabitch has 200hp, gets two claw attacks at-will with reach and can hover... Surely that's going to turn into the grind-fest from hell, considering it doesn't need to take a move action to stay in the air and thus never has a reason to land. Isn't it just going to float around above the party, using its breath weapon every 3 rounds?

Admittedly, I don't really have a feel for how good the ranged attacks of a 3rd-level 4E party will be, but it looks like a recipe for long-slow-drawn-out-painful-death to me!

Doom314 wrote:You also forgot the Vampire Lord (level 11 Elite Lurker), every bit as ill-conceived as the Spirit Devourer.

It has an AC of 29. Do the math for the kind of + to hit a level 10 character would have to hit to see how wrong that is...now toss in regeneration 10 (which only sunlight can stop), along with Blood Drain (to get back hit points, 46 at a time) and Second Wind (weee! more hit points), and, basically, vastly more abilities than the lvl14 Mind Flayer (along with better armor and more hit points).

Alone, this is a miserable grind-fest...with allies? A brutally long miserable grind-fest.

That one's not as bad as one might think.

+5/+6 to primary attack score.
+1 Weapon Expertise
+3 Weapon Proficiency
+3 Enhancement bonus
+5 BAB

= +17/+18 Attack bonus, which would only require 11 or 12 to hit, reduced to 9 or 10 with Combat Advantage. It's also got vulnerability 10 to radiant, so two or three PC's should be outdamaging the regeneration quite easily each turn.

A lot of epic tier solo monsters are difficult to deal with due to auto-daze abilities. Just about anything that looks like an aberrant orb is unnecessarily painful to attack.

Nominating the Beholder Ultimate Tyrant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090508) for this as well. What's worse than eye rays? AREA BURST 1 eye rays!

Iron Mongler wrote:Just about anything that looks like an aberrant orb is unnecessarily painful to attack.

See: the [Awesome] subtype. Beholders, due to low DCs (and people sensibly saying "1 isn't auto-fail on saves, Andy can suck my dick."), missed out on that subtype in 3E, but now in 4E? They win the [Awesome] tag. Tell me, do mind flayers roxxor your boxxors in this?

Koumei wrote:Tell me, do mind flayers roxxor your boxxors in this?

Well, they are always looking to get at some head...

Iron Mongler wrote:
That one's not as bad as one might think.

+5/+6 to primary attack score.
+1 Weapon Expertise
+3 Weapon Proficiency
+3 Enhancement bonus
+5 BAB

= +17/+18 Attack bonus, which would only require 11 or 12 to hit, reduced to 9 or 10 with Combat Advantage. It's also got vulnerability 10 to radiant, so two or three PC's should be outdamaging the regeneration quite easily each turn.

Wow, that's assuming an awful lot there, especially totally maxing out in every possible way a cleric or paladin, with their MAD. And, again, that's assuming TWO or THREE PCs regularly capable of radiant damage AND totally maxed out in every possible way? I haven't had a single party yet with 3 characters regularly capable of radiant damage (or 2, for that matter), much less radiant characters totally maxed out in every possible way. Seriously, not likely, and combat advantage for an entire party is hardly a sure thing, eh?

Let's assume the vampire can move into a corner (grant me one thing), and go over those assumptions.

I don't see alot of level 10 characters with 22 in their main stats...expertise didn't even exist when the monster was created...+2 proficiency is more common by far...and what happens if the character is level 9 (still supposedly able to handle a level 11 monster) and has a (for his level) +2 weapon?

So now we're looking at +12...needing a 17 to hit. This is a typical level 9 character, of course. Let's split the difference and call it +15, needing a 14 to hit. A party of 5 such characters generates less than 2 hits a round on average, making it nearly impossible to get past the regeneration.

But even with every possible thing breaking your way and designing all your characters from the ground up to deal with this one monster, a completely maxed out character has a 50% chance...completely maxed out in every way. Even with every single character maxed out in every possible way (I can't emphasize strongly enough how overbearing an assumption this is), that means 2.5 hits per round, assuming all characters can attack it every round, against something with a regeneration 10. Of course, the thing has Dominate (with a -2 save, as well), which will help even if it doesn't have some allies.

More realistically, at absolute screaming best 2 characters are maxed out in every possible way (well, for the sake of argument, anyway...I'm running 0 for 12 as far as that happening in my campaign)...toss in dominate on one, and now the vampire is basically being hit every other round, and probably for less than 20 points of damage.

Oh, and don't forget the vampire can blood drain his dominated 'pal' for an extra 46 hit points, again overmatching the damage from the squad put together.

But even your totally elite squad will have serious difficulties.

Granted, the dominate will only last a round (likely more than that, but not by much), but it recharges every 6 rounds. The whole party put together is maybe dealing 20 net damage every round, if they're very lucky and maxed out....the vampire wipes out two rounds of damage when he gets a blood drain...and then the second wind, so assuming he misses a blood drain one time and uses a second wind that one time, and has absolutely no breaks with dominate, we're averaging around 14 points of damage a round.

Let's put this together...against a completely maxed out in every possible way party with the vampire getting only minimal breaks (being in a corner, and getting 1 round off Dominate), we're talking over 12 rounds of grindfest combat, against a single creature WELL below the 'experience point budget' of a level 9 encounter.

And, of course, nearly impossible to kill for a level 9 party that has typical stats, feats, and equipment.

I still think that qualifies as "problematic". Not a TPK, perhaps, if the party runs away, but a bit excessive all the same.

If the whole party is ganging up on the vampire the perspective's not as bleak as you make it out. There are a whole lot of encounter powers that will give +2 to attack rolls, or -2 to the target's AC for a round, or an extra attack, or inflict combat advantage. And an Elite 2 levels up should probabyl expect to see some dailies flying his way. One successful Leading the Attack and your problems are solved.

That said, it probably does require too many resources in a fight with 3 other monsters

Doom314 wrote:

Iron Mongler wrote:
That one's not as bad as one might think.

+5/+6 to primary attack score.
+1 Weapon Expertise
+3 Weapon Proficiency
+3 Enhancement bonus
+5 BAB

= +17/+18 Attack bonus, which would only require 11 or 12 to hit, reduced to 9 or 10 with Combat Advantage. It's also got vulnerability 10 to radiant, so two or three PC's should be outdamaging the regeneration quite easily each turn.

Wow, that's assuming an awful lot there,

No. It's not.

It's assuming the game used point buy and standard loot, the players know what they are doing, the players did not take tradeoffs for lower to-hits but did not obsessively stack them.

Given that, those numbers could be as much as 4 points high or as much as two points low.

The primary attack stat bonus could be as much as a point high. At 10th level, you've added +2 to your primary attack stat. So unless you're a moron, it's at least an 18 - and if you started with only 16 in your primary attack stat as not-a-moron then you are maxing out the durabilty of your Dwarven Battlerager or some other perhaps-worthwhile tradeoff.

Okay, it is an assumption that Weapon Expertise will apply here, as I've played in a number of games where that book was unavailable (due to not being published yet or restricted book lists) but conversely, the odds of either Weapon Expertise or any one of the following applying are pretty good: Weapon Talent (Fighter, Rogue), Combat Superiority, Prime Shot(Ranger, Warlock), Divine Fortune(Cleric). Also see the racial powers/feats Infernal Wrath, Action Surge, Elven Precision, etc. Note that a fair number of those are stackable in some cases.

It's also somewhat of an assumption that the players will be smart enough to have taken a +3 proficiency bonus weapon - a lot of folks don't understand the math well enough to realize how important that is and will go for higher damage numbers or specials or plan on the useless epic weapon feats.

That also assumes a 10th level character will have a weapon with a +3 enhancement bonus. If you are playing by the standard item guidelines, a 10th level party of 4 PCs should have come across 6 to 10 level 11 or higher options. That makes it probably less than even odds that somebody has a +3 weapon, as characters may instead have armor, implements, or other items.

So with the stat minimum being a point lower, weapon expertise being unavailable, and the chance of the proficiency and enhancement bonuses being a point lower, it's possible for a well-designed 10th level character to have only a +13 to hit. That is kind of problematic against a 29 AC critter with regeneration and additional healing.

However, it's also possible for a character at that level have a class ability which grants a constant to-hit bonus, giving them a +19 to hit.

Furthermore, a number of feats and encounter powers can be stacked on top of that to push a to-hit bonus higher.

Even furthermore, charging can add +1, Combat Advantage can add +2 and those can be stacked.

If that's not enough, there are at-will powers that include to-hit bonuses (Valiant Strike, Careful Attack, Sure Strike) and a number of ways to give allies bonuses and enemies AC penalties.

All in all, it's not that uncommon to see people rolling to hit with bonuses over +20 at 10th level

For an example: my strength cleric Palmer regularly combined Divine Fortune, Student of the Sword and Action Surge to deliver a Righteous Brand Ideally this was while charging into flank to after having used Weapon of the Gods on his inescapable sword. If that game had reached level 10, this would have been a +22 to +27 attack ( +6 strength, +5 level + 3 proficiency, +3 Enhancement, +3 Action Surge, +1 Student of the Sword, +1 Divine Fortune, +1 charge, +2 flanking, +0-3 Inescapable ) that would set the party fighter or ranger up for a round at a relative +6 to +10 on each of his attacks. (Strength + flank + AC penalty)

Hmm, you start with 'no it's not', then concede expertise, ability scores of 22, and proficiency bonus.

All that remains in magic weapons...keep in mind, a level 10 party could only be certain to have the items they found level 9 and lower. Now, go through the PHB/AV, and see for yourself how few magic weapons of lvl13 or lower have a +3 bonus. I can see one party member having one...mabye two....but all five? Deeply unreasonable assumption.

As far as charging every round against a particular monster, or generating bonuses every round, or all five characters having combat advantage every round...I just don't see it, and I find it much more likely the vampire would have allies than any of those assumptions.

Granted, none of the 7 players at my table are level 10. The highest is level 9, and has a +13 bonus (not ready to call her stupid, though)...I can see it going up to +15, maybe even +16, at level 10, but I'll just have to see for myself how 'not uncommon' it will be for her to have +20 to hit.

Yes, I concede there are some assumptions.

I do not concede that there are "an awful lot" of assumptions. The numbers Iron Mongler presented are not precise, but they are well within the expected range for characters of that level in games played by the rules as written

***

And while you're right in that not all lvl 10 characters will have +3 weapons, I have no clue where you are getting the specifics of your magic item argument from, my treatment of the point is based on DMG 125

DMG wrote: During the course of gaining that level, expect a
group of five characters to acquire four magic items
ranging in level from one to four levels above the party
level.

In a party with 4 PCs, that's six lvl11 or higher items at the very start of level 10, and 10 level11 or higher items by the end of level 10.

DMG continued wrote: In addition, they should find gold and other
monetary treasure equal to the market price of two
magic items of their level.

So it does take until level 11 until PCs can just go buy or craft +3 weapons, but I contend that it is not an especially large assumption for one or more characters in a level 10 party to have a +3 weapon.

Y'all are talking at cross purposes. The rules for acquiring magic items organically are much more generous than the rules for starting at Level N with some magic items.

-Username17