The Gaming Den

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 4:30 pm**

Here's their iconic fighter.

Feats:

Combat Expertise, Double Slice, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (longsword), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Vital Strike, Power Attack, Toughness, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (longsword, shortsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword)

Jason Bulmahn's advice on how to play him?

First off, the new Valeros is designed to dish out the hurt, but his AC is a bit low for a character of his level. He can fix this in combat by using Combat Expertise, which at his level gives him a +4 dodge bonus to his AC (which also adds to his Combat Maneuver Defense, but more on that later) but taking a –4 penalty on attack rolls for 1 round. He can also used Power Attack to add +8 damage on attacks made with his longsword and +4 damage on attacks made with his shortsword by taking an additional –4 penalty on attack rolls. He would probably not want to use both at the same time, but he can mix it up as dictated by the situation. If he manages to hit one target with both his longsword and shortsword in the same round, he deals an additional 1d10+4 points of damage thanks to Two-Weapon Rend.

All of this assumes that Valeros begins his turn adjacent to an enemy. If not, he can charge up and make a single attack with his longsword using both Power Attack and Improved Vital Strike. This devastating attack is made at a +23 bonus and it deals 3d8+21. Note that Valeros can move 30 feet during this charge, despite wearing a breastplate. This is due to his armor training, which allows him to move at full speed while wearing such armor.

You might notice a new statistic in Valeros' stat block. CMD, which stands for Combat Maneuver Defense. This statistic is the DC for anyone else to perform a combat maneuver, such as bull rush, disarm, or grapple, against Valeros. This statistic is derived from his CMB +10 plus a number of other modifiers (Dexterity and deflection bonuses in this case). Note that Valeros adds his weapon training bonuses to his CMD whenever anyone tries to disarm or sunder weapons from those groups (he also adds these bonuses to combat maneuver checks made using weapons from those groups).

Lastly, Valeros has some fun magic items at his disposal. You can never go wrong with a necklace of fireballs (type V), especially when you are wearing fire resistant armor. The periapt of wound closure protects him from bleed damage, which is a bit more common with some of the new higher-level feats (Bleeding Critical comes to mind). Lastly, the ring of the ram is a great toy for a fighter like Valeros to control the battlefield a bit. Using just 1 charge allows him to make a bull rush combat maneuver at a +17 bonus, which should be enough to push smaller monsters around.

That's about all for this week. There are a few other tidbits hidden in the stat block for the math savvy, but I will leave those for the messageboards to puzzle out. Next week, in part 3 of our 14-week preview, we're going to take a close look at Seoni, the iconic sorcerer. And by close, I mean very close, close enough to examine her blood.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I was going to bold more relevant parts of the post, but I'd just end up bolding the whole damn thing.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 4:38 pm**

I find this even worse:

Will +3 (+7 against fear)

Seriously?

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 4:43 pm**

Srsly.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 4:47 pm**

Wow, *that* is their iconic level 14 fighter? My fighter's level 13, has a single non-Paizo feat (Ranged Weapon Mastery, but I've set two feats on fire) and does better than that...+26/+26/+26/+21/+16 (1d8+17/x3), before the party uses haste...and that's without point-blank shot, and I ignore the first 5 points of all DR except DR/- (in case I forget to use something else). I know my saves & AC are crap (+13/+10/+8 & AC 34), but they're better than theirs.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 4:48 pm**

That's pretty standard Fail actually. WotC did much the same thing.

For example. A half orc barbarian 10.

Barely breaks 100 HP, flails for the piddly shit of 1d12+11 with only +19 to hit, has a decent chance of failing Fortitude saves (and is practically assured of failing the other two types) and only got one feat right (PA, the others are fucking Cleave, Weapon Focus, and Improved Critical). Oh and he's PA bait to everything, so his HP are plowed through with trivial ease.

Rage slightly improves those stats, but the character is still made of Fail. The other 'iconics' aren't any better.

Though the Paizos naturally Fail worse in this regard. The WotC build at least doesn't waste as much money on vendor trash loot.

Possessions: +2 chain shirt, +2 greataxe, +1 mighty composite longbow (+4 Str bonus), twenty +1 arrows, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +1, belt of giant strength +4, boots of striding and springing, bracers of health +2, cloak of resistance +2, ring of climbing, potion of cure light wounds, two flasks alchemist's fire, antitoxin, backpack, bedroll, four units caltrops, dagger, flint and steel, grappling hook, sack, 50 ft. silk rope, one day's train rations.

Not devoid of Fail though, look at the arrows when he already has a magic bow and look at the healing potion and most of the mundane gear.

Oh and I think that's the one who honestly suggested 'grinding on low level enemies' to make cash in D&D.

Also, their Fail is worse just because they think that's anywhere near 14. Seriously. Look at those saves! Plus Fucking Three! Glitterdust, got them all indeed. They can't even avoid obvious traps like not using a fucking shortbow unless you don't have a choice.

What the fuck. 16 Str on a beatstick over level 3.

I can't even look at the fucking thing without finding more Fail. I'm half tempted to mass clone it and let my players slaughter them, then play the OOC guessing game of what level is that. Just so much lulz can be had when I show them the source of the mockery, likely evoking Darwinesque comments of 'How did they live that long?'

If they figure it out before then, even more lulz will be had as characters randomly start beating them at their own game with absolutely no training or gear to that end, just to show off what a gimp ass mob they are.

Edit: Lulz, ninjas.

Level 14 cohort (who finally started being useful for something more than delivering negative levels due to the addition of a few things, including Dungeoncrashing).

221 HP, 33/20/31 saves, +32/+32/+27/+22 auto attacks for 32-82 + 2 negative levels + Dungeoncrash (4d6+16).

Seriously, what the fuck were they on?

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 5:03 pm**

There is no reason for a single-classed fighter to have a will save that low.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 5:15 pm**

Looking at the character, he has no cloak of resistance, and apparently spent a pretty penny on a ring of the ram and the periapt of wound closure that could've been used on something useful.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 5:26 pm**

In fairness, that fighter was built less to be iconic (or effective) and more to demonstrate as many of the Pathfinder remodelings as possible. That they wound up also using it as their iconic is the result of simple laziness.

However, for extra hilarity, Buhlman's suggested tactic is not even legal according to the ruleset that he is the lead designer on, since Improved Vital Strike can only be used with a Full Attack, not at the end of a non-pounce charge.

The Sage is strong with this one.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 5:29 pm**

They might've updated the feat to work outside full attack in the new book, from their beta; in theory.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 5:36 pm**

virgileso wrote:Looking at the character, he has no cloak of resistance, and apparently spent a pretty penny on a ring of the ram and the periapt of wound closure that could've been used on something useful.

Aside from the weapon, he didn't bother getting anything useful at all, he just fucked around and bought random vendor trash. And then you consider the sword is entirely replaceable by a GMW a day, standard at level 14...

But yeah. This is standard Paizil Drivel.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 5:41 pm**

I count three new feats. That's about how many usable new feats Sword and Fist gave the average fightah.

Surely they had more stuff to play pretty princess dressup their fighter with;

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 5:44 pm**

Quite true, and I doubt the Paizo people consider it good form to choose your equipment with the expectation of someone else buffing you (which is partly why my saves are so low).

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 5:52 pm**

virgileso wrote:Quite true, and I doubt the Paizo people consider it good form to choose your equipment with the expectation of someone else buffing you (which is partly why my saves are so low).

Even if not, +1 special property weapons (not Keen though) are still the way to go. Regardless, their joke build lacks everything that matters.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 6:38 pm**

Pathfinder wrote: Lastly, Valeros has some fun magic items at his disposal. You can never go wrong with a necklace of fireballs (type V), especially when you are wearing fire resistant armor. The periapt of wound closure protects him from bleed damage, which is a bit more common with some of the new higher-level feats (Bleeding Critical comes to mind). Lastly, the ring of the ram is a great toy for a fighter like Valeros to control the battlefield a bit. Using just 1 charge allows him to make a bull rush combat maneuver at a +17 bonus, which should be enough to push smaller monsters around.

You know what would have been even better? If the fighter could @#$@#$% do those things right out of the box (or at least with single feat investiments) without needing bloody magic items for it.

Pathfinder wrote:You might notice a new statistic in Valeros' stat block. CMD, which stands for Combat Maneuver Defense.

Did they really need an entire new defense stat for that? They couldn't have tied it to some preexisting stat for the sake of simplicity, instead of adding the goddamn NWN Discipline stat to the game?

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 6:49 pm**

Combat Maneuver Bonus + 15 = Combat Maneuver Defense. There are feats/abilities that add to your CMB, but only when defending. Since players are going to have that total written down anyway because of the difference, might as well have a box dedicated to it (like flat-footed AC, touch AC, etc).

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 6:59 pm**

Holy shit. I didn't notice the +4 Strength booster--which means that the fighter started out with 12 Strength.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 7:28 pm**

I just want to point out, that in addition to the total suck, if Vicious Strike works on a Charge, he's better off leaving the short sword on the ground, ignoring half his feats, and charging everything, because that's more damage then his full attack.

Also, +3. +3. I want to kill someone. He's single classes. How do you even manage that.

Level 12: 10/12/22 (get's Superior Resistance as soon as we rest, adding 4 to each.)
Level 11: 18/17/17
Level 10 Core only: 13/12/13
Level 13: 23/14/28
Level 15: 18/19/30
Level 14: 23/21/35

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 7:35 pm**

Wisdom 8, base Will save of +4 from class, & not a single feat or magic item that even deigns to speak to either. That kind of behavior will do that. Personally, I skipped the Will save problem and got myself continual protection from evil.

What on earth are you guys using to get your saves in the 30s like that, especially since it sounds like you're sticking to single-class fighter?

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 8:02 pm**

I'm not necessarily sticking to single class fighter, I just opened up a bunch of my character sheets and wrote down their saves.

The 30s are usually casters with a good will save using their casting stat for will (Divine/Keen Intellect for Wizards/Force of Personality for Sorcerers).

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 8:13 pm**

virgileso wrote:Wisdom 8, base Will save of +4 from class, & not a single feat or magic item that even deigns to speak to either. That kind of behavior will do that. Personally, I skipped the Will save problem and got myself continual protection from evil.

What on earth are you guys using to get your saves in the 30s like that, especially since it sounds like you're sticking to single-class fighter?

I didn't. I just 2 level dipped it. The base saves are 13/7/7.

Con 26/Dex 16/Steadfast = +8/+3/+8 = 21/10/15.

Add +5 cloak, the MIC mask (+4 insight to Will saves) = 26/15/24.

Mass Conviction and Persisted Recitation on everyone = +5 morale and +2 luck = 33/22/31.

Then he has a -2 penalty to Reflex saves as the cost to use an item that does various things, most of which aren't that important. Does give +7 to shoving people around, which is useful as a Knockback Dungeoncrasher. End result is 33/20/31. If for some reason you actually took 14 levels of Fighter despite having no fucking reason to do so you would have base saves of 9/4/4... which makes for end saves of -4/-3/-3, or 29/17/28 with the same other stuff. And probably a few lower HP, since there's some D12 levels in there. Still infinitely superior to Single Digit Fail. I suppose if you actually gave a fucking fuck, you could take Iron Will and Improved Toughness off some of those extra feats to make up the stat contest differences, but it would be much better to have real class features. Like 'block one attack with near perfect success, then free AoO it, then free AoO subsequent attacks while blocking with his face' thus allowing this cohort to protect the main character and thereby actually be a useful beatstick. Of course, Sword and Fist is still made of Fail because apparently you need to be at least level 6 with a special PRC to actually protect people... which is right around the level most of them can protect themselves. Useful vs True Seeing users though, rare as they are.

Anyways.

This (the saves) is standard operating procedure to survive combats at those levels. Protection from Evil only helps against some of the effects... effects that are higher level than 'Glitterdust, got them all'.

And wait, that fucker had a stat booster item? Damn. And I thought having level 1 stats was bad... he has level 1 stats after boosting them.

Also Kaelik, that's SOP for TWFers that lack bonus damage. If they just drop the damn sword and put their other hand on the other sword and ignore half their stuff they will automatically be better. Or even not putting their other hand on the sword. It's very telling that a joke build like Sword and Fucking Board is infinitely better than their drivel.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 8:29 pm**

So apparently Jason Buhlman lacks the character building skills I had when I was a pre-teen reading an RPG book for the first time. This is no exaggeration: I can dig up my first character sheets ever and they're just way better than that in every way. Hell, my first character was a Sorcerer using Color Spray and Silent Image.

Not that this is surprising news. Or news to me at all.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 8:46 pm**

Psychic Robot wrote:Holy shit. I didn't notice the +4 Strength booster--which means that the fighter started out with 12 Strength.

Oh god... that just reminds me of the bullshit thing my friend said when I stated the OotS characters aren't optimized...
"Well you can't optimize in real life"

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 8:51 pm**

I hardly think it to be at all fair or sane to compare a multi-classed, multi-book conglomeration to a single book character. This is literally their rendition of a core, PHB-only, sample fighter, and you're pulling out several splatbooks as well as intra-party circle jerks. And I'm also not terribly certain how those are level 1 stats, because there's no way in hell that I could make a level 1 character with physical stats of 16/20/16 and still conceive of having mental stats of higher than 8.

This is very much NOT any kind of endorsement for the quality of Jason's fighter; as choosing a better selection of magic items (sticking to core, of course) will multiply his character's potential.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 9:57 pm**

So, what is the iconic doing with a dexterity of 20 that he never ever uses?

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2009 10:51 pm**

CatharzGodfoot wrote:So, what is the iconic doing with a dexterity of 20 that he never ever uses?

pre req for bullshit TWFing feats that still eat three feats like fucking hell instead of being one feat.

The Gaming Den

[Pathfinder] Just to kick a man when he's down.

[Pathfinder] Just to kick a man when he's down.