[Pathfinder] More previews up
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:19 am
Here's the Pathfinder cleric "preview":
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lacj
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lacj
Let's see...Divine Power was significantly altered to prevent the cleric from becoming a better melee fighter than the fighter with just a spell or two. Now the spell grants a bonus to attacks and damage rolls, temporary hit points, and an additional attack whenever the cleric makes a full attack (just like haste).
I guess the point is that "channeling energy" doesn't make undead run away but "turning undead" does. They made the "turning" bit optional (via a feat); during the playtest there were complaints about how annoying it is to chase down fleeing enemies.Parthenon wrote:This is retarded. They talk about getting rid of Turn Undead and changing it to Channel Energy. Then, in the feats list she has "Turn Undead" as a feat. WTF?
Fluff, schmuff.Parthenon wrote:My main issue though is the name of her sun god: Sarenrae? That is one syllable too long and gives me the idea that all the gods names will be confusing and irritating.
The attack bonus is now a luck bonus, not an unnamed increase to BAB. So it doesn't stack with Divine Favor, for instance.Roy wrote:Divine Power (before) = attack, damage, temp HP.
Divine Power (after) = attack, damage, temp HP, haste granted attack.
How is this a nerf again?
3.5 Divine Power + 3.5 Haste + 3.5 Divine Favor >> PFRPG Divine Power + PFRPG Haste + PFRPG Divine FavorJudging__Eagle wrote:Brier Cleric: Oh nooooesss! Whatever you do, please, pless, plzzz don't take away my BaB and give me an extra attack at my highest to-hit bonus! Whatever you do, don't do that!
I'm sure that's exactly what happened. Exactly like that.
Most melee fighters (clerics or not) have Boots of Speed on their "list", in my experience.FrankTrollman wrote:The character is inferior when maximally buffed including spells that are not on their list, but better when using only spells on their list. I am unable to see that as a meaningful nerf.
-Username17
7. And turning immunities into resists is a fast track to uselessness. Either you already have enough resist so now the spell doesn't make any difference, you have so little resist that you're still fucked, or you have enough so the spell makes you near immune which just takes the bad part of immunities and the bad part of iterative probability without any good parts to balance it out.Parthenon wrote:My issue with Death Ward is not that its too powerful; it's that it is only 1 min/level, so it causes one PC out of 4 to be immune to death effects for one encounter per day. Yeah it can be chained but then its a level 6 or so spell and still helps for one encounter. I wouldn't mind nerfing to just give a bonus to resists if it always gave a save versus negative energy effects such as Negative Levels, and if it was 1 hour/level.
Of course, scratching them for piddly shit is not an improvement.hogarth wrote:I guess the point is that "channeling energy" doesn't make undead run away but "turning undead" does. They made the "turning" bit optional (via a feat); during the playtest there were complaints about how annoying it is to chase down fleeing enemies.
And if you don't have Persist, you aren't going to use Divine Favor anyways. If you do, you'll be a CoDzilla regardless. So it still amounts to bonus = bonus. Make your Will save to disbelieve their tricks.The attack bonus is now a luck bonus, not an unnamed increase to BAB. So it doesn't stack with Divine Favor, for instance.
I think you're onto something. Because extra attack at full bonus > extra attack at -15. Just one thing though. Only two classes? Even if you're only counting core only, there are at least three. Could go higher if you lower the bar below top tier.Judging__Eagle wrote:Brier Pazio and Brier Paizils: Whoooo-hooooo!
You take that you mangey Cleric! You take it good and hard! Try to be aweome will you? Try to be one of the only two good classes in the game, will you?
Here, take that!, and that! and how about a little that!
Oh yeah? Try to get full BaB will yew?
Well, too bad, we're just going to give you an extra attack instead!
Brier Cleric: Oh nooooesss! Whatever you do, please, pless, plzzz don't take away my BaB and give me an extra attack at my highest to-hit bonus! Whatever you do, don't do that!
I'm sure that's exactly what happened. Exactly like that.
Except since Paizil Failure RPG makes Divine Power give you the part of Haste you care about, and either way you don't need Divine Favor is saying 3 spells > 1 spell really saying much? It's certainly better than any one of those 3 spells. So it's still more Bizarro Paizil Logic.hogarth wrote:3.5 Divine Power + 3.5 Haste + 3.5 Divine Favor >> PFRPG Divine Power + PFRPG Haste + PFRPG Divine FavorJudging__Eagle wrote:Brier Cleric: Oh nooooesss! Whatever you do, please, pless, plzzz don't take away my BaB and give me an extra attack at my highest to-hit bonus! Whatever you do, don't do that!
I'm sure that's exactly what happened. Exactly like that.
(And it's "Br'er", not "Brier" -- unless you're thinking of the Canadian men's curling championships.)
Except that when there are either no practical ways of getting that luck bonus or plenty of replacements it is identical. Also, now you don't need the boots or the spells since you have Divine Power and Righteous Wrath in one package. Which, compared to an attack you might as well not even bother rolling...hogarth wrote:Most melee fighters (clerics or not) have Boots of Speed on their "list", in my experience.FrankTrollman wrote:The character is inferior when maximally buffed including spells that are not on their list, but better when using only spells on their list. I am unable to see that as a meaningful nerf.
-Username17
I was addressing Judging Eagle who seemed to be implying that they made it better, which is just plain wrong. A luck bonus (that doesn't stack with Divine Favor) is demonstrably worse than an unnamed bonus. An extra attack that doesn't stack with Haste is demonstrably worse than one or more extra attacks that do stack with Haste. Whether that's a "meaningful nerf" or not is debatable, but it's certainly not an improvement.
I've seen clerics buff with both Divine Favor and Divine Power in 3.5. Maybe that's not possible in your game. Fine; life is a rich tapestry. But still "identical" is not the same as "better" (which is what JE was implying).Roy wrote:Except that when there are either no practical ways of getting that luck bonus or plenty of replacements it is identical.
Again, maybe no one is casting Haste (or Righteous Wrath or Snake's Swiftness or etc., etc.) on the party in your games. In that case, Divine Power is better. But in my experience getting Haste (either from boots or from a party member) is pretty standard.Roy wrote:Also, now you don't need the boots or the spells since you have Divine Power and Righteous Wrath in one package. Which, compared to an attack you might as well not even bother rolling...
This is just a minor tangent, and not a critique of your assessment of the current Paizo topic, but I'm trying to figure out what you consider appropriate or significant damage. You use the phrase "scratching/flailing for piddly shit" pretty frequently and I wondered if there was a percentage of hp or total value where the term ceased to qualify? Is OHKO-level damage the only acceptible quantity? 50% of target hp? 33%? 10%?Roy wrote: Of course, scratching them for piddly shit is not an improvement.
If you do not have access to Persist you are losing more damage from lost actions or lost surprise rounds from attempting to cast before combat than by using it. If you do have access to Persist your stats are going to be the highest in the party regardless. No, Quicken is not an acceptable substitute, you have better things to do with 5th level spell slots or 3/day charges on an expensive item than +3 to hit and to damage with your auto attacks. Indeed, the Righteous Wrath I keep mentioning gives +3 to hit, damage, and the haste attack and it still isn't worth it without Persist, though to be fair quickening that is not 5th level/lesser rod material. And if you have access to DMM you have access to Persist. They're in the same book. So no matter how you look at it, it doesn't matter.hogarth wrote:I've seen clerics buff with both Divine Favor and Divine Power in 3.5. Maybe that's not possible in your game. Fine; life is a rich tapestry. But still "identical" is not the same as "better" (which is what JE was implying).Roy wrote:Except that when there are either no practical ways of getting that luck bonus or plenty of replacements it is identical.
Haste burns a round that could be spent winning the fucking combat. It falls under all the same things as Divine Power. Righteous Wrath however can be Persisted, and that's what the party is doing right now. Like I said, it saves you the trouble of the boots. Which, given there are multiple must have foot slot items is a very good thing.Again, maybe no one is casting Haste (or Righteous Wrath or Snake's Swiftness or etc., etc.) on the party in your games. In that case, Divine Power is better. But in my experience getting Haste (either from boots or from a party member) is pretty standard.
First thing: Scratching and flailing do not mean the same thing there. Scratching means low damage. Flailing is the same, but also means low accuracy and is thus most commonly used in reference to Monks. The piddly shit part makes it clear you don't care about their damage. Pretty much exactly what the context implies, but just making sure. The distinction is important because the default accuracy is 95% after the first few levels, so having low accuracy is all the more telling.violence in the media wrote:This is just a minor tangent, and not a critique of your assessment of the current Paizo topic, but I'm trying to figure out what you consider appropriate or significant damage. You use the phrase "scratching/flailing for piddly shit" pretty frequently and I wondered if there was a percentage of hp or total value where the term ceased to qualify? Is OHKO-level damage the only acceptible quantity? 50% of target hp? 33%? 10%?Roy wrote: Of course, scratching them for piddly shit is not an improvement.
Because scratch/flail for piddly shit clearly wasn't enough to get the point across, despite practically explaining themselves.NineInchNall wrote:As a damage-oriented melee character you need damage and accuracy sufficient to stand toe-to-toe trading hits with one of the baddest melee brutes of CR = your level and win greater than half the time.
I don't know why you decided to make that into a long post.
Supposedly. But we all know how that went, and more to the point in the course of > 250 or more combats you're going to encounter quite a few where only one person acts before the enemy. Guess what that means if that person can't seriously fuck up said enemy? Now how many of those do you suppose will be you?virgileso wrote:Is this 'winning over half the time against routine encounters' for solo work, making it a PC fighting a monster of CR = level? If so, then that's how it's supposed to work.
You are telling me nothing I do not already know. Further, you are wrong. Pretty much anything can 1-2 round you. The non casters use full attacks for that. Since you're forced to close and take those hits with 95% accuracy on you, and you have far less HP than they do...virgileso wrote:Except for SoD/SoS effects, which not all monsters use, 50/50 battles are largely not decided in the first round of combat. When SoD/SoS effects are flying around enough to keep combat in the 2 round range (give or take a round), then death is going to happen w/in the party. Did you know that PC mortality rates are expected to be nonzero without making the campaign go to a screeching halt? Notice that bringing people back from the dead becomes reliable by 7th level with either delay death or reincarnation.
I laughed a little. This should be interesting.Next week we are laying our hands on the mighty and powerful Seelah, the iconic paladin.
well, paizo may suck at creating a complete RPG that's supposed to fix 3.5's problems, but their actual writing skills are pretty good. Dragon and Dungeon were great magazines for pretty much that reason, and occasionally you'd find some absolute gold.Ravengm wrote:I laughed a little. This should be interesting.Next week we are laying our hands on the mighty and powerful Seelah, the iconic paladin.
To be fair, the paladin got a large overhaul--the largest, in terms of changing class mechanics--and it's much more interesting and viable now. Still weak compared to a wizard, but less junky.I laughed a little. This should be interesting.
QFT, seriously.Kaelik wrote:I think the point is that they managed to make a pathetic Cleric and Sorcerer, so pretty much any character they make is going to fail to live up to the adjectives mighty and powerful, seeing as the Paladin will probably when smiting and shit do less damage per full attack than a hybrid/melee caster of his CR. (Or just a weak punchy monster if they are low enough level that there are no hybrids.)