Hybrid Classing will be 4E's final nail in the coffin.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:39 pm

The game has a lot riding on this feature. It's going to be the big 'thing' of the PHB3 and a lot of people are looking forward to it.

But it's not going to work, because the classes aren't balanced within themselves, they're not balanced to work with the hybrid classing system, and the role system itself is completely broken.

When it comes out and we see things like 21st level Battlefield Archer Wizards spamming 15 daily spells in a 5-encounter workday yet not using any of their ranger class features, people will be forced to admit that the edition is a pile of shit and we should move on with our lives.

Thank Koresh.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:41 pm

Lies. Hybrid classing is the one thing that makes me somewhat interested in 4e. I don't really care if it's balanced--if it makes the game less bland, I'm all for it.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:45 pm

It will lead to every melee class taking Ranger as their second hybrid class because Twin Strike and the ranger encounter powers do more damage than any of the other striker classes can ever hope to do.

It will lead to everyone who wants to be a 'defender' to hybrid-class swordmage and render the class and role completely superfluous.

It will lead to non-weapon classes either taking Wizard or Druid because those classes are balanced by having shit class features but freakishly powerful powers.

It will be a disaster of legendary proportions. You have a Lago guarantee on that.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:20 am

You might be better off making an argument that PHB 3 will be the end of 4e through the magic of significant numbers.

I mean people might seriously have and use 3 same titled books in their game. But 4+? more than the magic number 3 is a conceptual hurdle... I'm sure there are marketing guys out there wondering if they should rebrand PHB 4+ as some other title...

But on a more logical note, how many of these books full of essentially distinct "EBD" classes and powers can the game handle before people start complaining of bloat and indigestion?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:54 am

I could make one class of each role for Psionic and Shadow and the accompanying mandatory feats and items in approximately 3 weeks. Part it out to three 'lancers and it could be done in a week. That shit isn't hard. Oh snap, we have:

Assassin (Shadow Striker)
Baneguard (Shadow Defender)
Necromancer (Shadow Leader)
Hexblade (Shadow Controller)
Monk (Psionic Defender)
Psion (Psonic Controller)
Soulknife (Psionic Striker)
Wilder (Psionic Leader)

And you know what? It fucking writes itself. It's all templated. It's not interesting. What it is is a fuck tonne of mechanical conceptual space for very little playable conceptual space.

Oooh, we make a Hexblade who has big area curses that do crowd control but he still has a sword and fights in melee. Did that blow your mind? Of fucking course not! It's not very different from what we already had for every fucking other thing. Oh snap, the Monk doesn't use weapons, he drinks residuum. Oh snap, the Soul Knife and the Assassin are... exactly the same as the damn Rogue except that they arbitrarily have a different power list and therefore one is going to be a lot better and the other a lot worse. And they will use slightly different weapons. The Assassin will use a lot more crossbows, the soulknife will have an even harder hardon for daggers.

Ugh.

-Username17

sake · Post by **sake** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:40 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
It will lead to everyone who wants to be a 'defender' to hybrid-class swordmage and render the class and role completely superfluous.

Hybrid swordmage seems rather shitty they can only do their teleport gimmick once an encounter per marked target.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:44 am

Swordmages, for some lame reason, have a ton of powers that let them mark people willy-nilly.

If for some reason you wanted to play 4E's defender role, you can just snag the powers that let you do extra marking. So at the 'cost' of a couple of powers you have completely absorbed a role. And anyway swordmages get a lot of dumbfuck feats in their origin book that let them do the multimarking thing anyway. Which is precisely my point, hybrid classing will never work because the class feature/power interaction is a pile of bear asses.

I for one am looking forward to it. The edition won't survive two years after this system-breaking change.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:07 am

Lago, you are too optimistic. Or pessimistic, depending on how one views 4e. I firmly believe that 4e will survive any clusterfuckery for three reasons.

1. The name brand alone.
2. Past performance: 3e survived its myriad of splatbooks and balance discrepancies; there is no reason that 4e will not.
3. The fanbase. 4e has so fractured the gaming community that the overzealous fantards that cling to the bullshit that 4e claims that they will not concede an inch of ground. You've seen it in action on our forums--Crimson Lancer is the stereotypical 4rry. He finally broke down and admitted that 4e has flaws, but he only did so here, where he wasn't amongst like-minded individuals and where he faced a constant barrage of criticism. Furthermore, on top of that, there are people impervious to reason and math, as demonstrated by the continual defense of fighters as being "not broken," even to this day.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:27 am

The real question is whether the 4e community can take the inclusion of the Assassin class without having their collective conceptual space stretched to the limit. Lago thinks the answer is no. I think he's probably right.

They made a huge mistake when they made the Warden and the Invoker - they made classes that no one gives a fuck about. That's not somethng the game can well withstand when you still can't play a small spearman or a necromancer because the classes to do that shit haven't been written yet.

-Username17

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:35 am

They made a huge mistake when they made the Warden and the Invoker - they made classes that no one gives a fuck about.

Now that you point this out, I realize that you're right--nobody talks about the warden or invoker. Or the sorcerer, for that matter. (It's a wizard that does more damage, heh.) I think the most popular are probably the bard and barbarian.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:07 am

I really think that WotC tipped their hand too soon and went for the big payday.

If they were smart they would be using other people to build hype for their product while releasing stuff sparingly. For example, 3.0E got a lot of traction by tying their wagons to that of the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance while hitting us now and then with a Defenders of the Faith or some bullshit.

I mean, really, the product was out for less than a year and they were already releasing playtest material for Martial Power 2. I mean, come ON! If this edition did last for 4 years, which it won't, what are they going to be releasing in 2012? Arcane Power 4? Player's Handbook 5?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:09 am

"Book of Monsters Called George"
"Robotic Power" (they have to introduce a new power type or ten)
"Errata Compendium"

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:14 pm

I eagerly await bullshit broken mechanics and the PbP hijinx I will gleefully pursue with them.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:16 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
They made a huge mistake when they made the Warden and the Invoker - they made classes that no one gives a fuck about. That's not somethng the game can well withstand when you still can't play a small spearman or a necromancer because the classes to do that shit haven't been written yet.

-Username17

Stunningly enough, I've player wanting to try Warden in my Expedition to the Barrier Peaks 4.0 conversion...the bulk of that module doesn't really translate to 4.0 paradigms, but I'm curious if I can pound on it hard enough to make it sort of fit.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:29 pm

In the warden's defense, though, in my gaming circles there has been a mild amount of interest towards the Warden. Mostly because they have a polymorph mechanic more interesting than the druid in the same book and their special effects are better than the barbarian and druid.

No one likes the invoker or shaman, though, even though the shaman does have a minor legacy in 3E.

Warlord class is actually very popular, but that's mostly because they (very stupidly, in my opinion) split off an obvious archetype from the fighter and pretended that it was a new class.

The sorcerer/warlock thing has been noted, too, even though warlocks do pathethetically less damage than wizards. But I've seen more people want to play warlocks than wizards even though the special effects are identical, the only real difference is that lame curse mechanic and some 'you make a deal with the devil! WAAAH!' flavor text. Apparently people like that. No one is interested in the sorcerer, though.

Swordmage disappointed a lot of people. WotC advertised this as a 'gish' class, which everyone wants, but the problem is that the class doesn't really conform to what people expect from gishes. Swordmages are a 'defender' class, which means that they get poor mobility and low damage, but also use a lot of elemental and 'shield your buddies' special effects with their blade... which... doesn't really conform to peoples' expectations of what a gish should be like. The swordmage doesn't feel like I'm fighting like Kratos, Ichigo, or Sora. It feels like an elementalist who uses a sword instead of a wand.

Artificer got a 'meh' reaction.

Everyone I knows laughed at the monk preview, probably because it continues the legacy of suckage. Low damage, half of the powers are implement powers (which are invariably weaker than weapon powers) and the special effects are just like the rogue, but with more psychic damage sometimes.

A couple of peopled wanted to play an avenger. The first thing they noticed was the lack of damage. The second thing they noticed was how easy it was for monsters to thwart their class ability, so in both my online and one of the tabletop games monsters decided to forgo the 'bunch up together to try to stop flanking' tactic so that the avenger could have something to do.

The saving grace of that class was Righteous Wrath of Tempus, since we could have people bust out 45 damage at level 3 and that would make the avenger people happy at having the spotlight shone on them. With the nerf, though, I can't imagine anyone wanting to play an avenger again unless Divine Power comes out with some better stuff.

ggroy · Post by **ggroy** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:01 pm

ggroy · Post by **ggroy** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:24 pm

ggroy · Post by **ggroy** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:38 pm

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:47 pm

There's no way you can call this planned obsolescence, because a failed product in a franchise inevitably stains all future products in it.

There's no way that you could claim that the Batman and Robin movie was planned obsolesence for the franchise so they could do a GRIM DAHRKE reboot that was one of the highest-grossing movies of all time in 2008. And you'd have a much better claim for that for B&R, because at least that movie was very financially successful.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:03 am

I dunno, man. Maybe they are trying to torpedo what they view as a failed venture, so that they have more support for building a new new system.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:13 am

You think that the current design team, who will undoubtedly get fired if 4th Edition goes under in less than 5 years, is trying to torpedo their own product?

ggroy · Post by **ggroy** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:16 am

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:17 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:You think that the current design team, who will undoubtedly get fired if 4th Edition goes under in less than 5 years, is trying to torpedo their own product?

I think they get pd by the word and they figured out how to get paid more than $20 an hour doing that. If the gravy train goes off a cliff, so be it.

-Username17

ggroy · Post by **ggroy** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:26 am

ggroy · Post by **ggroy** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:29 am

The Gaming Den

Hybrid Classing will be 4E's final nail in the coffin.

Hybrid Classing will be 4E's final nail in the coffin.

Re: Hybrid Classing will be 4E's final nail in the coffin.