The Gaming Den

http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/P ... s_1-30.htm

For those of you not interested in reading that, the psion looks like one of the few classes in 4e that's not a giant turd because--wait for it!--it has interesting mechanics.

The playtest psion is a telepath, allowing him two powers:

1. Distract, a range 10 minor action power that causes the target of the power to grant combat advantage to the next person to attack it. The duration is one round, and you can target two creatures at level 11 and three creatures at level 21.

2. Send Thoughts: 25-words-or-less free-action telepathy with a range of 20. The target can respond as a free action. (Does this mean that the psion can send infinite 25-word messages in a round?)

Here we have two interesting, flavorful powers, which is a +1 to 4e. And the best part is that one of them isn't combat-based.

Oh, and then there comes the augmentation, a nod to 3.5 psionics.

You get power points as you level, but you do not gain encounter powers. Instead, you gain at-will and daily powers. You start off with two at-will powers, gain a third at level three, and then replace them with higher-level at-will powers as you go along. You can augment these powers with your power points (which refresh after a short or extended rest), allowing you a choice in how you use your encounter-equivalent powers.

Why this is good:

1. As 3e has shown us, different mechanics for each class are a good thing.
2. It fights blandification.
3. No longer are you going to go daily-encounter-at-will-at-will-at-will for the combat! You're given options, delicious options.
4. Lots of mind-control powers and stuns, dazes, and force damage--the kind of thing you'd expect from a psionic character.

Why this is bad for 4e:

1. Many of the pro-4e crowd are in an uproar about this abomination. MECHANICS DEVIATING FROM THE NORM? Burn the witch! Cut her throat! Spill her blood!
2. "This is just change for change's sake!"
3. When the introduction of new mechanics started with 3e, it was the testing ground for a new edition. While I'm doubtful that 4e is about to give up the ghost here and now, this gives me hope for 5e and D&D in general.

3.5 psionics work fairly well. They're more balanced than Core D&D (which is kind of like saying that volcanic eruptions are less dangerous than a nuclear apocalypse--it doesn't make anyone in Pompeii feel any better).

XPH. CPsi was an abortion.

I dunno, just seems like this class isn't really going to be about more options, but rather just the ability to spam the same option (whatever you deem best) over and over again.

The problem is that the game still lacks much tactical diversity and the options don't seem especially meaningfully different, especially considering every attack is Int vs. Will.

I've heard that Dreamscarred Press has some decent products, but I'm never read them myself.

I haven't read it, but supposedly the Malhavoc one is good (Hyperconcious I think).

RandomCasualty2 wrote:I dunno, just seems like this class isn't really going to be about more options, but rather just the ability to spam the same option (whatever you deem best) over and over again.

Welcome to the rest of 4e.

ggroy wrote: Maybe that's what the designers' intentions were from the very beginning.

Dress up the same few cookie cutter mechanical structures, and repeatedly change the fluff "skins" on them. Rinse and repeat.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, 4E would work okay if they did this.

1. Give everyone one good type of attack they do well that has great effects. For instance, the psion's attacks against will are very powerful.
2. Give people a couple secondary attack types that have moderate effects.

This way people would dominate against creatures they're supposed to beat (Psion beats low will monsters), but they have to make choices against monsters with strong will. Do they want to go for their big attack, or use something weaker somewhat outside their specialty because it has a greater chance of landing?

Unfortunately, so many classes just don't even have that option. It seriously is just a no brainer to pick your best ability and spam it.

ggroy wrote:Any 3pp's produce a worthwhile psionics supplement?

I largely ignored most 3pp splatbooks for the most part during the 3E/3.5E era. Though I did pick up some adventures made by 3pp's.

I'm rather partial to Dreamscarred Press' products. They tend to know their shit and have some interesting classes and ideas.

So how do multiclassed psions work? My 4e-fu is weak, but Psion/Warlord seems like a natural. However, taking a warlord paragon path would seem to put you in an inconsistent state.

PR, I have no idea how you can say that Psionics was 'good' or 'the best' in any context. Sure, it's true from a relative standpoint 3E psionics were better than 1E psionics, but it's completely misleading.

Psionic points were one of the worst ideas ever implemented by Dungeons and Dragons. It's not quite as bad racial level limits, but definitely worse than polymorph dumpster-diving.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Psionic points were one of the worst ideas ever implemented by Dungeons and Dragons.

Vancian spellcasting is worse.

Why?

Vancian spellcasting is balanced. Spellcasting is not balanced for a huge variety of reasons, but the basic idea is. You can say that it's cumbersome or boring or contrived, but balanced is another thing.

Book of Nine Swords uses a 'Vancian' spellcasting system. Is that unbalanced or worse than power points? Is it?

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Why?

Because it's stupid that if Thor loves my cleric so much that he gives said cleric the ability to raise the dead, but if he asks to walk on air, it's "fuck you, Hogarth, you should have thought of that when you were praying this morning".

(Maybe I should've been more specific that it's the "prepared spells" aspect of Vancian spellcasting that I dislike, not spell slots per se.)

hogarth wrote:

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Why?

Because it's stupid that if Thor loves my cleric so much that he gives said cleric the ability to raise the dead, but if he asks to walk on air, it's "fuck you, Hogarth, you should have thought of that when you were praying this morning".

(Maybe I should've been more specific that it's the "prepared spells" aspect of Vancian spellcasting that I dislike, not spell slots per se.)

And why is that bad for a wizard?

Because it's stupid that Thor loves my cleric so much that he lets me raise the dead, but if he asks to walk on air, it's "fuck you, Hogarth, you should have thought of that when you were praying this morning".

That's a thematic issue (one I personally don't have a problem with) rather than a balance issue, which given all of the balance issues D&D has automatically pushes it way down the chart of 'D&D problems'.

hogarth wrote:

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Psionic points were one of the worst ideas ever implemented by Dungeons and Dragons.

Vancian spellcasting is worse.

Vancian spellcasting works like playing Magic cards, because it was originally playing cards. That means that it creates tactical questions and frequently involves people slapping down a weak spell because they might as well or slappng down a very large spell when they are almost depleted because that is what they have left. This mimics the kinds of spellcasting people do in books very well.

Spell Points just has people spam their biggest bestest thing over and over again until they run out, and then they either give up entirely or switch to a piddly thing that uses up little or no mana until they get to recharge. In short, spell points generate the kind of SpamSpamRest cycle that Diablo II characters engage in.

In short: Spell Points fucking suck and are basically the worst system of rationing power even before we get to the fact that it involves large amounts of iterative addition and people are constantly fucking it up and slowling down the game. Spell point casters are more boring, slow the game down more, and less tactical than spell slot casters. No meaningful advantages to the system exist.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA wrote: That's a thematic issue (one I personally don't have a problem with) rather than a balance issue, which given all of the balance issues D&D has automatically pushes it way down the chart of 'D&D problems'.

Then I don't know what your balance is with psionic points, unless you want to argue that they're not as good as spell slots 99% of the time. The psion is really just a jumped-up sorcerer with the Versatile Spellcaster feat, after all.

Then I don't know what your balance is with psionic points, unless you want to argue that they're not as good as spell slots 99% of the time. The psion is really just a jumped-up sorcerer with the Versatile Spellcaster feat, after all.

Psionic powers are simultaneously too weak and too powerful.

Too weak end of the scale: Vancian spellcasting by design (otherwise you don't have a Vancian spellcasting system) has weaker spells get more powerful as you gain in levels. This is to prevent situations where people never waste their time using a single 2d4+1 magic missile, because on some level magic missile will always have a use. Not so for psionics. Unless you augment a spell power, the lower-level powers pretty much suck and will get you killed. So people use augments, which cuts into the pool for their higher-level powers. But then why wouldn't you just use the higher-level powers?

Too strong end of the scale: In Vancian spellcasting, you can't trade magic missiles for fireball. This is to prevent people from casting nothing but fireball. Psionic points definitionally have the power points you used to use for Verve power up Psionic Whip. So combined with the above system people do nothing but spam their strongest-level shit. Because of the whole 'trade magic missile for fireball' thing going on, they can nova for longer than primary spellcasters, but then they become totally useless.