[Tome of Tiamat] A beginning

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:24 am

Dragon: The Hoarding
From the aggregate collection of human mythology, dragons are monsters with scales. They've been both the size of a dog to the size of a mountain, their leg number is as varied as the tastes of a hedonist, their powers as different as what humans are given. About the only seeming constant is that they're scaly and their power is part of their natural state, as opposed to the tool-using nature of humans.

Now, what and how dragons are portrayed in the past only matters if you're trying to recreate mythology. Modern dragons have a distinct Western root. It's been changed since then, as just look at historical depictions of Saint George's dragon, that thing is the size of a mastiff. The same source material depicts them as clever beasts at best, and most just had super-poison (fitting the serpent theme). As time passed, they got smarter, bigger, firey, wealthier, and more magic-y. It's gotten to the point where we just don't accept dragons smaller than draft horses as terribly threatening. Ultimately, the closer you resemble Tolkien's Smaug, the more draconic you are.

In the RPG demographic, they're subject to fanboy wank. Even the 'mook' dragons you're allowed to kill are artificially made tougher than their CR would indicate (the infamous [Awesome] subtype), then there's the not uncommon Draconis Ex Machina. We largely don't like them smaller than a horse unless they're basically hatchlings, and yet we want them as final bosses from the dungeon crawl from the very beginning so we can live up to the title of the game, which doesn't happen under the current rules (medium+ CR 4 dragons, impossible!).

We've ideally seperated gross material wealth from power, but this still leaves the problem that barring fanfic dragons, they largely don't use magic items and run around in the buff. Using the Book of Gears, we need to have six or seven of their magic item 'slots' be taken up with their own body (likely all minor). This way, their interest in baubles, while present, will largely sit in their Bat Cave because they can only use one at a time. It also sets us up with the precedent for their corpse retaining mojo, be it using their scales for magical dragon armor, their third eye for crystal balls, their teeth for swords/daggers, their blood for potions, etc. Even if you don't use that method, their pile of gold can still hold an array of magic items that were understandably unused by the dragon.

This still leaves the big issue, their hoard. Why do they amass such material wealth they're unwilling/unable to spend while also encouraging treasure-hunting adventurers to kill them? There have been several excuses made for it. I've heard of them using it as a sanctuary-style focus to help them mature and age into their magical power at a rate not dissimilar to wizards, which is a viable method of turning wealth into power. I've also heard the idea them being like magpies, and their intelligence makes this instinct more refined.

In fact, let's go with the idea of gold = power theory I mentioned.
Hoard [Monstrous]
All that glitters has a high refractive index.
Prerequisite: Dragon, level 6+
Benefit: You must sleep atop a pile of gold large enough to support you for a solid month to activate this feat, which is now your designated hoard. Once you've done so, you gain the benefits as if wearing 7 constant minor magic items of your choice (maybe more to account for each natural weapon). To change one of the bonuses, you must sleep atop your hoard for a solid week. Thereafter, you must sleep a minimum of one night out of three atop your hoard (which must remain a minimum size to support your natural form) in order to retain these benefits.

It's a semi-mobile sanctuary that's based on a pile of filthymeticulously polished gold, gems, and other valuables.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:48 pm

I'd not seen this till just now. Its a shame that no one commented on it. I don't know how much work went into the Tome of Tiamat Collectively but this type of fluff to fact work is really what sold me on all of frank and k's work. I think that if you're going write the potion of the Dragon horde for this particular tome you really should go over a few of the Various sources ideas of "Why a horde" as you mentioned

There have been several excuses made for it. I've heard of them using it as a sanctuary-style focus to help them mature and age into their magical power at a rate not dissimilar to wizards, which is a viable method of turning wealth into power. I've also heard the idea them being like magpies, and their intelligence makes this instinct more refined.

Similar to how Alignment is written in the "How black is the night" section of the Tome of Necromacy. I'm not saying perse go over all of them, but at least the two major ones along with the pros and cons of each.
Oh and personally NOT fond of any mechnical reason for dragons doing this, as interesting as it is, mostly I'd argue it as a plot point to make your game world run classically, but better because it has a reasonable explanation.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:59 pm

I'll be honest, I never saw this in the first place. It's pretty handy for quick-statting a dragon in a reasonable manner.

Xur · Post by **Xur** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:10 pm

I like it! While I am lazy when it comes to creating NPC/monster stats, having a reason for the dragon to not leave his pile of gold is cool, especially if its made available to the playes via knowledge checks or whatever. I imagine how they try to come up with a plan to disturb the dragon and prevent him from sleeping on his hoard.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:46 pm

Midnight_v wrote:I don't know how much work went into the Tome of Tiamat Collectively but this type of fluff to fact work is really what sold me on all of frank and k's work.

What all was supposed to go into the ToT? I know there'd be caster stuff, dragons, Illusion rules that don't make you want to stab your eyes out, and maybe some planar currency stuff. What else was there?

Were they planning on rewriting casting classes, or just leaving them as-is? How much community material got written as flagged as part of the ToT?

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:55 pm

I have NO fucking clue Rob, honestly I looked up the ToT on a whim and during the searches this came up. Ironically I really fell in love with the right up starter for the Tome of Trees, so I started to comment on that again but something made me... dig this up, see what Virgil was talking about. Its not bad, its actually kinda nice, but since Frank and K are the gods that abandon thier creation I find all of these starts by various people to be very intriguing, don't you?

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:34 pm

RobbyPants wrote:What all was supposed to go into the ToT? I know there'd be caster stuff, dragons, Illusion rules that don't make you want to stab your eyes out, and maybe some planar currency stuff. What else was there?

Were they planning on rewriting casting classes, or just leaving them as-is? How much community material got written as flagged as part of the ToT?

Illusions weren't in Tome of Tiamat, they were supposed to be in the Book of Gears. Currency would be Raw Chaos for ToTia specifically.

FrankTrollman wrote: Tome of Tiamat

Power Sources

Magic Physics

Warlock

Warmage

Bonus Core Classes (Elementalist, Firemage, Puppeteer, Snowscaper)

Prestige Classes

Feats and Spells and Spheres

Dragons

Elementals

Genies

Evocation Overhaul

High Adventure on the Inner Planes

That's the full list of topics.

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:47 am

Elementals seemed to get overhauled in the Book of Elements project.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:11 am

BearsAreBrown wrote:Elementals seemed to get overhauled in the Book of Elements project.

Which... isn't part of the originally-planned Tomes and is irrelevant except as a source of material.

For Valor · Post by **For Valor** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:14 am

Quantum LURN 2 REED.

Elementals are in the Tome of Tiamat plan. The Book of Elements took those out, along with Genies and the bonus classes (most of them...)

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:53 am

I certainly didn't expect to see this post after it seemingly died an ignoble death. I was hoping it would create incentive for others to expand upon the idea for doing some work on it; because I didn't use dragons much in games, there isn't much creative motivation on my part to go much farther than what I had posted above.

I don't think how they handle their hoard is the subject that should see an analysis like was done with the Tome of Necromancy's Alignment, but how they're handled at all. Do you use them as marauding animals like they do in How to Train Your Dragon, as living incarnations of magic as they do in Eastern myth or Tamora Pierce's books, as highly intelligent bruisers ala Smaug or Dragonheart, or the schizophrenic approach where you wantonly use all three in the same setting like they do in D&D?

Vebyast · Post by **Vebyast** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:50 am

Book of Elements also grabbed High Adventure on the Inner Planes and Physics of Magic, if it helps. It looks like it grabbed most of the ToT's non-dragon fluff.

Vnonymous · Post by **Vnonymous** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:55 am

I've always gone for the "kind of human" approach.

Dragons get hoards for the same reason people get gold covered rims and teeth. When you have a big hoard, it shows other dragons of the opposite gender that you've got your shit together and would make really awesome baby dragons. Hoards are ostentatious status symbols, and the reason they have that wealth in the form of gold and not easy-to-transport magical items is because the entire purpose of the hoard is to look impressive.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:05 am

so dragons amass a big hoard to convince other dragons they have a big... "hoard?" That actually makes a certain kind of sense... except for the part where the hordes of a traditionally magical and shape shifting nature attract humans, and...

hey look, an even worse explanation for half-dragons.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:49 am

Vnonymous wrote:I've always gone for the "kind of human" approach.

Dragons get hoards for the same reason people get gold covered rims and teeth. When you have a big hoard, it shows other dragons of the opposite gender that you've got your shit together and would make really awesome baby dragons. Hoards are ostentatious status symbols, and the reason they have that wealth in the form of gold and not easy-to-transport magical items is because the entire purpose of the hoard is to look impressive.

So dragons are basically oversized bowerbirds.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:42 pm

IIRC, the Council of Wyrms setting had hoard size as a sort of experience, so you needed it and age to advance an age category. That made a lot of sense to me.

Vnonymous · Post by **Vnonymous** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:44 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:so dragons amass a big hoard to convince other dragons they have a big... "hoard?" That actually makes a certain kind of sense... except for the part where the hordes of a traditionally magical and shape shifting nature attract humans, and...

hey look, an even worse explanation for half-dragons.

Actually, the attraction of danger and risk is one way that having a hoard signifies a "good" dragon. A hoard naturally attracts a lot of attention, and being able to survive that attention is proof that you're capable of raising good little dragons, much like risk taking in humans.

Coincidentally, I do live in Australia, and bowerbirds are actually fairly common here, to the point that seeing the incredibly blue bowers was actually an attraction on holiday trips. We'd even occasionally give them blue things, only to discover that they would actually move the blue things somewhere else - we weren't capable of perceiving the beautiful order that said bowerbird had organised things in, so our gift was out of place.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:53 pm

Vnonymous wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:so dragons amass a big hoard to convince other dragons they have a big... "hoard?" That actually makes a certain kind of sense... except for the part where the hordes of a traditionally magical and shape shifting nature attract humans, and...

hey look, an even worse explanation for half-dragons.
Actually, the attraction of danger and risk is one way that having a hoard signifies a "good" dragon. A hoard naturally attracts a lot of attention, and being able to survive that attention is proof that you're capable of raising good little dragons, much like risk taking in humans.

Coincidentally, I do live in Australia, and bowerbirds are actually fairly common here, to the point that seeing the incredibly blue bowers was actually an attraction on holiday trips. We'd even occasionally give them blue things, only to discover that they would actually move the blue things somewhere else - we weren't capable of perceiving the beautiful order that said bowerbird had organised things in, so our gift was out of place.

Fuck yeah. Horny Hording Dragons Batman! Win. I suppose when you're nigh immortal and can screw and or eat everything... thats exactly what would happen.
I was reading in some scientific magazine not long ago and it discussed how likely human intellect is simply mating selection gone horribly awry, so this has a lot of resonance with me as a concept I admit.

Also Virgil... I do think these things are super intellegent innatly magical beings, but never actual embodiments of magic. Thats closer to Gods isn't it?
Now don't get me wrong plenty of dragons ascend to playing populous I'm sure and because of that on any D&D world there's likely to be a cult of the dragon in which they're worshiped, revered, sucked off and get free tickets and box seats at all the best games (large box seats) etc... but all of that lends well to the argument them fostering any "embodiment of magic" myth or "Dragons are Divine" set up that might arise. That works actually in almost any game world. Not to mention some of them actually are divine... of course that just means "more" in D&D as we all know. No muss, no fuss solutions.

K · Post by K » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:50 pm

I always thought DnD 3.x's focus on xenophilia was super creepy.

I think it would have been a lot easier to just say that "Dragons/demons/etc are powerful and people totally do stuff to to get some of that tasty power because it's in the blood and you don't have to read books or work out or get in touch with your inner self to get that power."

I mean, drinking dragon blood for power makes perfect sense to me. Interspecies sex is just sick.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:50 am

Apparently, when they were starting out, wizards was a really swinging place. (reference, though I can't vouch for veracity http://www.spelamera.se/index.php?optio ... 2&Itemid=1)

Maybe that culture carried forward?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:17 pm

K wrote:I always thought DnD 3.x's focus on xenophilia was super creepy.

I think it would have been a lot easier to just say that "Dragons/demons/etc are powerful and people totally do stuff to to get some of that tasty power because it's in the blood and you don't have to read books or work out or get in touch with your inner self to get that power."

I mean, drinking dragon blood for power makes perfect sense to me. Interspecies sex is just sick.

...
*must not derail new thread*

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:32 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:*must not derail new thread*

Start a new one?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:06 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:*must not derail new thread*
Start a new one?

It's really not that important? K is perfectly within his rights to be squicked out by that which sci fi and fantasy have proven to be one of the highest ambitions of the human race, finding interesting new sentient things to convince to touch our jibbly bits.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:30 am

Look, just drink the dragon blood. DRINK IT!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_blood