[D&D] Warning signs: how to tell your DM is problematic.

[Roy]

So you're wanting to play some D&D, but don't want to waste your time with someone that for whatever reason doesn't get it. There's plenty of examples of what happens when early detection doesn't occur and you find out the hard way.

Naturally, this is a suboptimal use of your time. And since 4.Fail and the Paizils have pulled a lot of... suboptimal players (I do not mean character BUILDING skills) it is all the more important to block out the trash, so that the quality players can actually enjoy themselves. So, this thread is designed to teach you what the red flags are. Many of you already know this stuff, but clearly not all and in any case it makes for an easy reference.

1: Obvious one first. Core only is ALWAYS a warning sign, UNLESS it's a newbie game. In which case you shouldn't join anyways, because you aren't a newbie. Even if it isn't predicated on the blatantly false assumption the game is more and not less balanced this way (it usually is) just the fact your viable options are cut down to around... 3-5, and there are typically about that many people in the party still means there's not a lot of things you can actually play. Well, maybe if you like red shirts.

2: Low magic and/or wealth is almost always a warning sign. It demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about the system and will essentially always lead to massive problems. Note that I only said almost always on the extremely unlikely chance (we're talking 0.000001% here) it was possible to make that work. Many of the following examples will be different variations of 'tries to make system do something it's not made for, displaying blatant ignorance that manifests in other areas as well' so most of the other examples will be shorter.

3: Lack of Genre Savviness, either as a DM, or as is displayed by the characters is often a warning sign. This means you'll get shit like people living in ordinary castles with armies of mook peons despite the fact this is neither a safe base nor an effective means of waging war. It gets worse when applied to IC specific things, like intelligent villains being dumbasses. Bonus points if the justification is something like 'movies are like that'. Fuck movies, make some credible and intelligent threats. Kkkthxbye.

4: Disconnects between the rules of the world and the way the world actually works. See also: Forgotten Realms anything. This is always a warning sign, because it turns the entire campaign into Giant Frog.

5: If the DM bans 'Spell Compendium' specifically, this is almost always a warning sign. The reason being that 95% of the time when that book is blocked specifically, it's because of some vague claim of 'overpowered spells'... yet the Complete series, Races series, Weather series etc is in. And everything or almost everything in the SC is a reprint from one of those books! Thus it demonstrates phenomenal ignorance, along with a propensity for kneejerk bullshit which means even if you don't care about the SC, it still has undesirable effects in other areas. Of course, if they actually knew what they were talking about they could simply select the problem spells, block those, and let the rest in. But they don't. Which is why they do a little feel good measure that does nothing but removes the consolidated source. And oh yeah, most of the original prints were stronger than the SC version. So whatever problems concerned them they just made worse.

6: If the DM bans Tome of Battle specifically, this is almost always a warning sign for similar reasons. Namely, kneejerking. If made to elaborate, this will be proven true again and again, as it is very rare for the reason to be something other than some variation of 'They're better than Fighters' as if this were a bad thing. And/or complaints about 'anime'. I guess because mundanes can actually participate in most anime, and indeed often pose as credible opponents in many of them?

6b: The DM bans the Expanded Psionics Handbook specifically. This is very similar to the ToB issue. Similar to comparing a warblade as better than the fighter, they'll complain how psions are such better blasters than the wizard. They fail to realize real reasons spells are broken and they fail to see that blasting still sucks.

And really, the only reason a psion is a "better" blaster than a wizard is that you can do a better (easier) job of it if you're a newbie. Wizards do better if you try and know where to look. This 'better' is required to be an actually functional character, therefore psion blasters are a trap build anyways. (RobbyPants)

7: Almost any ban of a splatbook class not already mentioned qualifies, usually because of some vague generic 'it's too powerful' claim. Except that if it's a caster it's either weaker than a Cleric/Druid/Wizard, or derives its strength by stealing their tricks (Archivist/Artificer). And if it isn't, it is an improvement about two thirds of the time, and in such cases the boost is well needed.

8: Whining about HP damage in any amount. It proves the DM does not even grasp fundamental concepts like 'blasting sucks' and 'critical existence failure' and therefore cannot be trusted to make sound judgments regarding the game. They will then often prove you right by not realizing the awesomeness of Spells That Fucking Kill People. Because it's not Fireball.

9: DM uses the word 'storyteller' in reference to himself in a non joking manner. There is an 85% chance this is a code word for railroader. GTFO. ASAP.

So, any other ways to easily identify problematic DMs so as to be able to optimize game time?

Edit: More.

10: The DM frowns on taking multiple classes or prestige classes to their "sweet point" (say Barbarian 2, Fighter 2, Ranger 1 in 3.0) or outright bans this.

This is a clear sign he doesn't understand that casters do not need multiclassing, have a stronger selection of prestige classes that are worth taking all the way through as opposed to dipped into and are in the better position to start with. Any DM who will let you play a Druid 20 but will not let you play a Paladin/Samurai/Fighter/Devoted Defender/Templar/Planar Champion doesn't understand the game.

Solution: Play a straight Cleric, Druid or Wizard and roleplay all your spells as martial feats. (Murtak)

11: The DM in question has started a dozen campaigns in recent memory, all of which have ended abruptly with no resolution. Or the DM has played in a dozen campaigns in recent memory, all of which he dropped out of abruptly (because his gnat-sized attention span got distracted by a shiny piece of tinfoil). Both are sure signs anything involving him will end in abrupt failure and that you should not waste your time. (hogarth)

12: DMs who cannot read the fucking manual. Not reading the rules properly turns the encounter into a joke or a trainwreck. Granted sometimes the statblocks are objectively unclear (see: Roper). Making a mistake is not a warning sign unless it happens frequently. Refusing to learn from it is a strong one though. (Judging Eagle)

13: DMs that change the rules, but will not tell you what the new rules are. This is a practical assurance the DM is just fucking with you for the lulz, and you should leave immediately. (Judging Eagle)

14: For that matter, DMs that won't tell you what the rules are in the first place. This deserves a separate entry because it refers to things that don't involve changing the rules but do involve multiple choice, like knowing what the character creation rules are. This almost always means they aren't telling you what books are allowed or how stats are being done or whatever because the answer is something you would not want to hear, therefore the DM is trying to trick you into wasting your time so when you figure it out you might be compelled to stay and attempt to salvage it. Not only should you leave immediately if he refuses to answer this question, but I strongly recommend the Folding Chair of Salvation.

15: DM uses houserules pertaining to Critical Fumbles of any kind. Hell, even the Critical Successes are a dire warning to run away. But the former is especially telling, as it illustrates a lack of understanding of Iterative Probability and that therefore these will fuck over the players hard at every turn, and more so when they are supposed to be more competent. Alternately he does know that, and is doing it anyways. (Torko)

[Murtak]

10. The DM frowns on taking multiple classes or prestige classes to their "sweet point" (say Barbarian 2, Fighter 2, Ranger 1 in 3.0) or outright bans this.

This is a clear sign he doesn't understand that casters do not need multiclassing, have a stronger selection of prestige classes and are in the better position to start with. Any DM who will let you play a Druid 20 but will not let you play a Paladin/Samurai/Fighter/Devoted Defender/Templar/Planar Champion doesn't understand the game.

Solution: Play a straight Cleric, Druid or Wizard and roleplay all your spells as martial feats.

[Roy]

I need a bit more detail. Namely number it in order, specify how often this is a warning sign (and to what extent) and maybe elaborate a little more since this thread's secondary purpose is educating people that don't know better, therefore it should be clear to someone seeing it for the first time.

For that matter, are mine obvious enough?

[Murtak]

Edited my previous post. Your post looks clear to me.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Meh. The biggest reason to ban stuff outside of Core is 'I don't want to read through all that shit', and the biggest reason to ban 'Wiz 3/Master Specialist 2/Incantatrix 5/Mage of the Arcane Order...'-type characters is 'I don't want to read through all that shit'. Which I can respect.

[Ravengm]

I had an interesting quirk one time as far as banning the Spell Compendium went.

It was banned because the spells didn't list their source easily. He allowed basically every splatbook ever, except for SC, because some spells were changed, and none of them directly cited what book they were from.

So, to take spells from the SC, I was forced to research what books they originated from. Which seems like a gargantuan waste of time for both of us, but I was still able to take them.

Granted, he made the argument that there's no way that my Druid would be able to know all of those spells at any given time, and probably not even my god would know all them. Which makes sense to me. But he still allowed all of the spells, which was confusing.

In any case, the solution to SC banning is usually more work than it's worth: doing a lot of homework.



Also, a warning sign: a DM that refuses to houserule a bit to make some classes actually worth playing (i.e. just giving the Monk a full BaB).

[NineInchNall]

Meh. The biggest reason to ban stuff outside of Core is 'I don't want to read through all that shit', and the biggest reason to ban 'Wiz 3/Master Specialist 2/Incantatrix 5/Mage of the Arcane Order...'-type characters is 'I don't want to read through all that shit'. Which I can respect.

I've never understood this rationale. Like, at all. The DM has to

• verify that the PC qualifies for the class in question.
• ... And?

[IGTN]

Also read through the abilities of the class, and remember them when designing encounters.

And integrate them into the world (NPCs, etc.).

[Roy]

Depends on what we're talking about. For something like Monk, there's other unarmed sorts that actually work. So rather than try to fix them (which takes a lot more than that), just point them in the right direction.

[NineInchNall]

Also read through the abilities of the class, and remember them when designing encounters.

Which only requires knowing the abilities that the PC actually has, not those of the entire class or book or whathaveyou.

And integrate them into the world (NPCs, etc.).

Whuh? Why? No, really. It's just mechanics.

[mean_liar]

I always like to have something interesting to say about any PrC a PC wants to take and how it integrates into the world. It's more than mechanics.

[Murtak]

I always like to have something interesting to say about any PrC a PC wants to take and how it integrates into the world. It's more than mechanics.

Why? Next to no class has even a single mechanic which remotely interacts with any sort of organisation. Why do Incantatrixes, Battleragers, Deepwood Snipers and Sacred Exorcists need any explanations beyond what the player wants to provide?

[RobbyPants]

6: If the DM bans Tome of Battle specifically, this is almost always a warning sign for similar reasons. Namely, kneejerking. If made to elaborate, this will be proven true again and again, as it is very rare for the reason to be something other than some variation of 'They're better than Fighters' as if this were a bad thing. And/or complaints about 'anime'. I guess because mundanes can actually participate in most anime, and indeed often pose as credible opponents in many of them?

6b:

The DM bans the XPH specifically. This is very similar to the ToB issue. Similar to comparing a warblade as better than the fighter, they'll complain how psions are such better blasters than the wizard. They fail to realize real reasons spells are broken and they fail to see that blasting still sucks.

And really, the only reason a psion is a "better" blaster than a wizard is that you can do a better (easier) job of it if you're a newbie. Wizards do better if you try and know where to look.

[Kaelik]

I had an interesting quirk one time as far as banning the Spell Compendium went.

It was banned because the spells didn't list their source easily. He allowed basically every splatbook ever, except for SC, because some spells were changed, and none of them directly cited what book they were from.

So, to take spells from the SC, I was forced to research what books they originated from. Which seems like a gargantuan waste of time for both of us, but I was still able to take them.

Granted, he made the argument that there's no way that my Druid would be able to know all of those spells at any given time, and probably not even my god would know all them. Which makes sense to me. But he still allowed all of the spells, which was confusing.

In any case, the solution to SC banning is usually more work than it's worth: doing a lot of homework.



Also, a warning sign: a DM that refuses to houserule a bit to make some classes actually worth playing (i.e. just giving the Monk a full BaB).

I remember that guy. I could not fathom the idea that we had to provide a source for the spell. I mean, WTF. Did he expect the Magic Item Compendium to list it's sources, because it can't.

[cthulhu]

What the hell is wrong with just banning psionics?

To me it's just an issue of conceptual space and time management.

I already have mages and clerics, I don't need yet more stupid crap which actually requires me to modify canned adventures if I have to use them, when the point of using them is that I have a job and didn't have enough time to come up with something.

[RobbyPants]

What the hell is wrong with just banning psionics?

To me it's just an issue of conceptual space and time management.

I already have mages and clerics, I don't need yet more stupid crap which actually requires me to modify canned adventures if I have to use them, when the point of using them is that I have a job and didn't have enough time to come up with something.

I guess it depends on the reason. If it's because you don't own the book, I can sort of see it (90% of it's free in the SRD). If it's because you don't want to take the time to learn something new, I can sort of see that too.

If it's because you don't think it's balanced and it's overpowered is where I have the problem. That's the bulk of what I mentioned when I elaborated.

[Username17]

Also read through the abilities of the class, and remember them when designing encounters.

Which only requires knowing the abilities that the PC actually has, not those of the entire class or book or whathaveyou.

And integrate them into the world (NPCs, etc.).

Whuh? Why? No, really. It's just mechanics.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not. If someone brings me a Mage of the Arcane Order PrC or a Hunter of the Spawn of Selkyrloth PrC, I am deeply unhappy. Those kinds of PrCs bring with them a whole batch of NPCs, allies and enemies that I have to deal with. If someone wants to be a Blood Magus or an Oozemaster I am fine with that. Heck, I'll happily work with the player to make an alternate version that is not ass.

-Username17

[cthulhu]

You could easily collapse the warning signs 5, 6 and 7 to

"Bans material that is less powerful than CoDzilla or wizards for power reasons, but has not taken measures to address CoDzilla or wizards"

[Psychic Robot]

I wouldn't allow Tome of Battle because I don't like it. No offense to fighters or anything.

[JonSetanta]

2: Low magic and/or wealth is almost always a warning sign. It demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about the system and will essentially always lead to massive problems. Note that I only said almost always on the extremely unlikely chance (we're talking 0.000001% here) it was possible to make that work. Many of the following examples will be different variations of 'tries to make system do something it's not made for, displaying blatant ignorance that manifests in other areas as well' so most of the other examples will be shorter.

I especially agree here, but it also (less often) tends in reverse.

Noob DMs might wash you over with waves of ill-understood and often misapplied magics, which oddly only work for the DM and never the way you intend.
For instance; attack rolls required to use wands on you and allies, poor understanding of how creating SOMETHING from NOTHING will disrupt fantasy economies, reasonable distribution of power by spell users (archmages piddle around in local bars without whole towns and cities targeted by their equally powerful rivals? What the fuck, Volo) and page-long Wishes.

At least they take a step in the right direction; rather than going LOTR on you, they've acknowledged the existence and need for high magic in high fantasy, broken 3e rules or not.

[Koumei]

I guess it depends on the reason.

How about "We have enough random types of spellcasting, I don't want to cram another one in, especially when it's a blend of X-men/Sci-fi and hippy shit"?

Okay, granted, the WotC boards also taught me another valuable reason:

"You like psionics, so chances are I don't like you because you're going to kick and scream and demand I include your favourite splat-book in my game, including dropping Your Special Magic Items everywhere, Your Special Magic Monsters as foes and all that shit. And then you'll call all your friends and have them all insult me for being a mean anti-psionics DM, and will try to tell me in that arrogant Stormwind* way that psionics will always change the game for the better. Fuck you."

*This is the only issue I have with Stormwind, for those wondering "Why the hate?"

Actually, I think that sums up most of the things I don't allow. They're fucking stupid, and the fans of them are some of the most annoying people in the world.

[RandomCasualty2]

I really don't find banning the Spell Compendium to be that big of a deal. I mean, core casters alone are powerful enough, I can perfectly understanding a DM just saying "Look you've got enough options" and deciding that casters really don't need all those new spells.

Because seriously, they really don't. Especially clerics and druids who automatically get every spell in there by default (which is a fuck load of work for the DM).

[Username17]

True. I actually find that the world is a worse place when Druids get those spells that put triceratops horns on their face.

-Username17

[FatR]

Meh. The biggest reason to ban stuff outside of Core is 'I don't want to read through all that shit', and the biggest reason to ban 'Wiz 3/Master Specialist 2/Incantatrix 5/Mage of the Arcane Order...'-type characters is 'I don't want to read through all that shit'. Which I can respect.

True that. IMO, there is very little correlation between the quality of GMing and the breadth of allowed sources.

[Koumei]

True. I actually find that the world is a worse place when Druids get those spells that put triceratops horns on their face.

-Username17

I'm not sure about worse, but I find it a more stupid place when druids wander around with triceratops horns. And werebear mouths.