The Gaming Den

What kind of system would you suggest for a campaign with space marines, such as Starship Troopers (without the camp)?

That's an absurdly broad question. Can you indicate some things you'd like to see in a system or deal breakers?

Things such as:

- Whether there are supernatural powers in the game and how much of an effect on play they have
- Level of technology
- Sliding scale of heroism vs. grimdark
- Lethality for the PCs

So on.

I would second the request for more details. Most of my knowledge of what a "Space Marine" is comes from computer games. Are you looking for a system that models Quake 4, Dawn of War, and Doom 3 equally well?

If Dawn of War (i.e. WH40k) Space Marines are close enough, Dungeon Crusade is pretty much specifically designed to do that.

Indeed. Questions come up like:

"How many characters are you expected to lose in a single evening fighting the bugs?"
"How much of the evening do you intend to take up with actually fighting bugs vs. talking and fixing things?"
"How special are the PCs supposed to be?"
"Do you intend to be space marines in book version Starship Trooper mecha armor or movie version Starship Trooper bullet catchers?"
"How much detail do you want on a skirmish?"
"Do you even want to do skirmishes, or do you want to do your role playing against the backdrop of major battles raging all around you?"

-Username17

Going with the book mentioned in the initial post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers

Starship Troopers is a military science fiction novel by Robert A. Heinlein, first published (in abridged form) as a serial in The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction (October, November 1959, as "Starship Soldier") and published hardcover in 1959.
The first-person narrative is about a young soldier named Juan "Johnnie" Rico and his exploits in the Mobile Infantry, a futuristic military unit equipped with powered armor. Rico's military career progresses from recruit to non-commissioned officer and finally to officer against the backdrop of an interstellar war between mankind and an arachnoid species known as "the Bugs". Through Rico's eyes, Heinlein examines moral and philosophical aspects of suffrage, civic virtue, the necessities of war and capital punishment, and the nature of juvenile delinquency.[3]

So, definitely military, probably part of a standard unit. Powered armor would be standard.

The PCs might advance through the military ranks quite a ways over the course of the game. This might require a tiered system, likely with frequency of personal combat diminishing in favor of commanding increasingly larger forces.

If the philosophical components are kept, characters in the system will likely need to be more detailed.

The novel opens with Rico aboard the corvette Rodger Young, platoon transport for "Rasczak's Roughnecks", about to embark on a raid against the planet of the "Skinnies", allies of the Arachnids. We learn that he is a "cap" trooper (called this because they are dropped in capsules from the ship in orbit toward their drop zones) in the Terran Federation's Mobile Infantry (M.I.). The raid itself, one of the few instances of actual combat in the novel, is relatively brief: the Mobile Infantrymen land in the capital city, destroy their targets while trying to avoid unnecessary Skinny casualties, and withdraw, suffering three injured (one fatal) in the process.

The system may be like Shadowrun in that it typically spends more time on planning for conflict than in conflict resolution.

After enlisting in the Mobile Infantry, Rico is assigned to boot camp at Camp Arthur Currie. Five chapters are spent exploring Rico's training

The party may start the game and spend several sessions simply on their experiences during training.

"How many characters are you expected to lose in a single evening fighting the bugs?" - In general, none from a single session, but a possibility over several (possibly from Iterative Probability)

"How much of the evening do you intend to take up with actually fighting bugs vs. talking and fixing things?" - Majority of the time is fighting (if I were to pull a number out of the aether...75%?), with interspersed talking/fixing.

"How special are the PCs supposed to be?" - In-universe, not that special; but like the main cast in a series, you don't expect them to die that quickly.

"Do you intend to be space marines in book version Starship Trooper mecha armor or movie version Starship Trooper bullet catchers?" - More competent bullet catchers? Powered armor would be a more militarized form of the vehicle from Aliens, though I suppose there would be an ultra-elite (and ultra-expensive) suit akin to Halo's Spartans.

"How much detail do you want on a skirmish?" - Fair amount of detail, it being the focus.

"Do you even want to do skirmishes, or do you want to do your role playing against the backdrop of major battles raging all around you?" - Your actions would be important in a drop team special forces manner, but there is a definite major battle backdrop that you're working within.

Also, to add variety, I'd like to include a rogue human force (seperationists or some such name) to also fight against so it wouldn't be all giant bug.

virgileso wrote:"How many characters are you expected to lose in a single evening fighting the bugs?" - In general, none from a single session, but a possibility over several (possibly from Iterative Probability)

Then you don't want to Starship Troopers, because people die left and right.

"Do you intend to be space marines in book version Starship Trooper mecha armor or movie version Starship Trooper bullet catchers?" - More competent bullet catchers? Powered armor would be a more militarized form of the vehicle from Aliens, though I suppose there would be an ultra-elite (and ultra-expensive) suit akin to Halo's Spartans.

Why? You want the players to be grunts; why are there a bunch of people with awesome stuff in the background if you can never be one of them?

Also, to add variety, I'd like to include a rogue human force (seperationists or some such name) to also fight against so it wouldn't be all giant bug.

You could just use the Skinnies.

Remember how I said that Starship Troopers was an example of a space marine portrayal, and not THE setting for the game? Besides, from the movie I saw, the major characters introduced in the beginning all survived; hence that 'main cast survives because of plot' statement.

Akula wrote:Why? You want the players to be grunts; why are there a bunch of people with awesome stuff in the background if you can never be one of them?

You gave a reason why, they're grunts and that's the focus of the game. Not to say they're part of Operation: Human Shield, but they're not supposed to be any more important than slightly (emphasis there) larger-than-life military heroes.

You may want to consider something like Shadowrun's Edge to represent plot armor.

Please please please read the book. The book is excellent; the movie turns an intelligent book into an action movie.

See, the book actually makes grunts versus superstars make sense... because the grunts are mecha-armor, but the superstars are the space navy, so they send in the grunts because the bugs have taken prisoners and the Terrans want them back, whereas the more economical solution would just be to bomb the planet open if you just wanted to get rid of your bug problem.

So obviously a space navy can't do something that space marines can, even though they are much, much, much more powerful. They can only hit bugs on the surface, but all of the real targets are buried underground and have things that can't be destroyed casually with them.

Yes, read the book. Yes, read the book.

It'll give you a good backdrop points for fluff at least based on information given. The movie is crap.

Holy crap, this thread turns up on the first page of a google search for "space marines vs bugs" (out of over 300k results)

Relevant soruces for "Space Marines vs Bugs"

Books
Heinlein: Starship Troopers
Steakly: Armor
Card; Ender's Game
David Drake: almost half of everything he wrote.

Movies:
Starship Troopers not gonna argue the film's merits, but it's a very different take on the same material than the book is, so if you are looking for alternate perspectives, worthwhile)
Aliens
Them. Not in space, just regular marines with flamethrowers.

Games:
Space Hulk / 40k
Starcraft

TV Series:
Battlestar Galactica (reimagined series) the cylons aren't really "bugs", and marines are cameo parts in comparison to the fleet officers, but the pro-military jingoism, the occurance of human-vs-human factional conflicts and the mortality rate of secondary characters is likely the tone you want
Robotech: Invid (aka Mosepeda) - I'm sure there are other anime here, but this was the only one I recall.

Now with those in mind, here are some suggestions for the genre:

• The PC missions are always within the context of larger operations - and both win and loss conditions should have real outcomes. You don't just need to take out the radar station - you need to take out the radar station before oh-eight-hundred so that the air support can halt the separatists' advance on the hyperspace gate. Win, and the bombardment forces the separatists to stall and treat for a cease fire - leading to the "PCs must guard the snotty diplomat in hostile territory" mission. Fail, then there are heavy losses in the air corps and the advance continues leading to the "heroic last stand at the jump gate" mission.
• Battle is fraught with unpleasant decisions. Leave your wounded buddy behind and you betray the Ranger code; take him with you and you won't make the rendezvous in time.
• Surviving your commanders is often just as big a deal as fighting the enemy. Every one of those unpleasant decisions should be seconded-guessed by the brass after the mission, and PCs may find themselves facing. military discipline or other consequences for even heroic actions.
• If you want to have mortality with a reduced impact on the flow of the game - each player gets 2 (or more) characters - but they only run one per mission. This gives you a stable of established characters (as opposed to redshirts) who can die with meaningful impact, but also gives you a continuing cast from episode to episode. If you really want to give it a TV series feel, and don't mind being blatant about it, you can even let each player designate which one is their headliner and give that character extra plot immunity (does not protect against season finales or contract disputes)
• If you want an anime tone: the bugs are infiltrating the human forces via clones or brainwashing or technobabbly-evolutionary-moretechnobabble. This will inevitably lead to sappy romances between the agents and the human forces (see BSG and mosepeda).

It turns out the Starship Troopers movie was not originally connected to the book in any way, but the studio wanted their production tied to a recognizable property to give it cachet. So the film got some superficial rewrites and name changes, and a new title.

User wrote:Please please please read the book. The book is excellent; the movie turns an intelligent book into an action movie.

The movie is fucking brilliant. The book is shallow right wing propaganda attached to some kickass science fiction, the movie is deep political commentary lodged inside an incredibly funny movie.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:

User wrote:Please please please read the book. The book is excellent; the movie turns an intelligent book into an action movie.

The movie is fucking brilliant. The book is shallow right wing propaganda attached to some kickass science fiction, the movie is deep political commentary lodged inside an incredibly funny movie.

-Username17

um... bull crap.

I can't rightly defend the book because I haven't read it, but the movie was nothing more than Paul Verhoeven saying "herf derf, I had Heinlein" for two hours

Edit: I mean, I know verhoeven half heartedly claimed that he had some kind of commentary, but he also conffessed that he has no idea what that commentary was I think we can safely say he's BSing

I'm only saying this because I always vehemently agree with Frank, but I watched Starship Troopers for the first time last month on Netflix, and it was fucking hilarious. If you didn't like that movie then something is seriously wrong with you (or you have a weak stomach).

Many fine movies are bad adaptations at the same time. The Conan movie is perfectly enjoyable, even if the protagonist bears very little resemblance to Howard's barbarian. Similarly, the first two Harry Potter movies are very faithful adaptations, but inferior films to the rest of the series.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I'm only saying this because I always vehemently agree with Frank, but I watched Starship Troopers for the first time last month on Netflix, and it was fucking hilarious. If you didn't like that movie then something is seriously wrong with you (or you have a weak stomach).

I assume this is directed at me...

I didn't say I didn't find it funny, although the first time I watched it I wasn't too pleased because I was expecting and actual SciFi/Action movie, not a parody. I was more disputing the alleged "deep political commentary"

norms29 wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:

User wrote:Please please please read the book. The book is excellent; the movie turns an intelligent book into an action movie.

The movie is fucking brilliant. The book is shallow right wing propaganda attached to some kickass science fiction, the movie is deep political commentary lodged inside an incredibly funny movie.

-Username17

um... bull crap.

I can't rightly defend the book because I haven't read it, but the movie was nothing more than Paul Verhoeven saying "herf derf, I had Heinlein" for two hours

Edit: I mean, I know verhoeven half heartedly claimed that he had some kind of commentary, but he also conffessed that he has no idea what that commentary was I think we can safely say he's BSing

If you've actually read the book, you would find that the movie masterfully inverts the type of rightwing propaganda (i.e. advocacy for fascism) espoused in the book. Verhoeven did the movie right.

Speaking of movies that deal with right-wing propaganda, what was up with Fight Club? Was it rejecting Tyler Durden's message or supporting it?

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Speaking of movies that deal with right-wing propaganda, what was up with Fight Club? Was it rejecting Tyler Durden's message or supporting it?

Yes and no. The actual moral was supposed to be that Tyler's extremism was really equivalent to the extremism of following the consumerist rules he fought against. The simultaneous destruction of Tyler and the credit card companies represented a middle path of less destructiveness. Or something.

By the way, one of my friends is a Brazilian Jujitsu teacher for Apple computer, and apparently there is actually a Fight Club in Apple. He says that their form is terrible, their philosophy is amateurish at best, and describes the entire group as "super embarrassing."

So yeah, I would say that not getting Fight Club is pretty much the baseline state for people in general.

The definition of cult classic is that it is a film where Meatloaf is in it and he dies.

-Username17

Yes and no. The actual moral was supposed to be that Tyler's extremism was really equivalent to the extremism of following the consumerist rules he fought against. The simultaneous destruction of Tyler and the credit card companies represented a middle path of less destructiveness. Or something.

I was on the phone with my mom when I saw this and I asked her the same question. She pretty much said what you did. Something about Ed Norton Jack symbolizing a confused victim between the fetishism of femininity and masculinity (since one of Tyler's core problems with modern men is 'a generation of men raised by their mothers') and so he finds the middle way.

Are you telling me that I got South Parked?

So, would an idea in making a variety of Space Marines RPG work if I were to do a variant off of d20 Modern, using armor as DR (since classes don't give scaling damage to weapons), splitting Dex into AC & atk, combining Str & Con into one stat?

Or should I use a completely different resolution system, like Shadowrun or GURPS?