The Gaming Den

So I was thinking about playing a bard, sorcerer, or beguiler (depending on what the other folks were getting) but since it's been over a year and a half since I played 3rd Edition my knowledge is lacking.

I want to play something effective but also with as little dumpster-diving as possible. I also want to be able to snag spells from other peoples' lists as necessary.

So throw me a frickin' bone here.

Also, while we're on the subject: metamagic.

I want some of that. What do you got for me?

In Races of Eberron there's a PrC named Recaster which gives you a couple of these, among quite a few other things. Required race Changeling. The other class features look a lot like metamagic too.

I remember reading about a Rainbow Servant PrC in Complete Divine which let you cast cleric spells, but I never picked up Complete Divine.

If you go to It's Hot Outside, you can be one of those sandcaster guys who add like forty spells to your spell list. Costs you a caster level, but it's a lot of spells.

-Username17

Abuse Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration.
It's shit for numeric effeciency, but they're pretty much a fistful of spells in one.

Check out Ruin Delver's Fortune from Spell Compendium for some extra CHA abuse.

Frank, your earlier lectures about sacrificing a caster level for greater breadth were the exact opposite of your current advice; it's strange seeing this advice now.
I'd say go Mystic Theurge if you're willing to give up caster levels that far, but Archiver and Wizard would be the only combination I'd consider with that.
Hey, you might be able to use Mystic Dilettante (from here) and go crazy with spells.

Arcane Disciple from complete divine on top of any class with beguiler style casting (this includes dread necromancer and warmage that I know of). You get to cast one spell on the domain from each level once per day as if it was on your spell list.

Yeah, CompDiv has the Rainbow Servant. Full caster progression (because text > table) and you add Law, Good, Air and Cleric spells to your list. Note: you still have to learn them, so a Sorcerer can pick a few rare spells whereas a Beguiler or Warmage goes "Thanks, YOINK!"

If you don't mind being short, green and shit, you could set some feats on fire as a Dragon-rort Kobold and gain +1 level of Sorcerer, so that as a Sorc/Sandcaster and still have full casting... and 40 extra spells instantly known, some at lower levels than normal. This would also allow you to get a free +3 to Int, Wis and Cha (ageing bonuses but not penalties) and even select Epic feats (see: +1 Cha every 3 levels).

Those are the easy ones; there are some more rare...

-Heroes of Horror has the Fiend-caster that is full progression for first 9 and every two you get a spell, and there is a feat to cast all the Corrupt Spells as prepared spells, and a feat to cast some lame dream spells.

-any PrC that grants a Domain lets you cast those spells once a day. I don't have the list any more, but check the Faerun books and the Complete series for cleric PrCs that add straight spellcaster levels.... I want to say Divine Oracle is one....

-Eberron has a magic item that lets you put a spell into it and it becomes a prepared spell (and it lets you buy slottable cheap crystals to use more spells)

-A Ring of Theurgy from I think Complete Arcane lets you put spells into it and use them as prepared spells.

-Libris Mortis has the corpse-tumor spells and a feat for them, so... yeh.

-One of the Faerun books has an Aracnomancer that is a one level dip for a pile of spells.

-Just being a Mage of the Arcane Order lets you cast any spell a set number of times per day like a Super-Sorcerer, and that neatly handles any Utility crap you might want. Combine this with a Ring of Theugery or the Eberron item and you can get a huge amount of variety.

-Sandcaster from Its Hot Out There is the best excuse for losing a caster level that you can get.

-There are a lot of other little wiggly ways to get spells on your list that don't belong there, but few DMs would give them a pass.

Some not allready mentioned:

In Dragon Magic is a PRC that lets you get any spell from any spell list.
But you loose Caster Levels. (If I remember correctly exactly at the levels you gain the Spell)

Unseen Seer from Complete Mage gets you any (one or two, depending on how much levels you take) Divination Spells. You dont lose a caster level, but if you take more than 2 (?) Levels you get bonus on Divination caster level mali to the other schools.

Rainbow Servant is that PrC with the table showing +1 caster level every second level and the text saying +1 every level?

Korwin wrote: Rainbow Servant is that PrC with the table showing +1 caster level every second level and the text saying +1 every level?

That's the one, yep.

Heh. Rainbow Serpent. More like, gains a caster level every second.

Throw in some specific CL+ feats from CArc and the 3.5e planar guide, and you have somewhere around 150% output for a select few spells.

There's also Arcane Disciple, if you're a beguiler. Doesn't work for bards or sorcerers, though.

Arcane Disciple (Luck) is tasty.

But then, if you're playing a Beguiler and not going into Shadowcraft Mage, I will personally shoot you in the face.

With a brick.

NineInchNall wrote:Arcane Disciple (Luck) is tasty.

But then, if you're playing a Beguiler and not going into Shadowcraft Mage, I will personally shoot you in the face.

With a brick.

Even if I'm starting at level 16 and am a Rainbow Servant?

Kaelik wrote:

NineInchNall wrote:Arcane Disciple (Luck) is tasty.

But then, if you're playing a Beguiler and not going into Shadowcraft Mage, I will personally shoot you in the face.

With a brick.

Even if I'm starting at level 16 and am a Rainbow Servant?

If your DM uses the table and not the text, then yes 8)

Korwin wrote:If your DM uses the table and not the text, then yes 8)

I think it's understood that no one would waste their time on table Rainbow Servants.

True enough there, but your Gleemax counterpart in name is one of the strongest supporters of the Table Rainbow Servant.

Kaelik wrote:

NineInchNall wrote:Arcane Disciple (Luck) is tasty.

But then, if you're playing a Beguiler and not going into Shadowcraft Mage, I will personally shoot you in the face.

With a brick.

Even if I'm starting at level 16 and am a Rainbow Servant?

Here's the key question: are you allowed flaws? If so, then you can go Beguiler 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 and get all of your fun in one basket.

Of course, not many DMs will allow that, but if they do you might as well go for it.

I'm controlling an elven beguiler in a modified Planescape game (Tome content is available, and the combat is fairly easy. PC Tome monks have fought NPC regular monks.). He has cast Whelm more often than any other spell in his list. It amuses me, but it is not the sort of choice one should make if one expects level-appropriate opposition.

I would also be interested in learning about useful metamagic options available to beguilers. In particular, if there's anything that would layer a secondary effect onto large-scale illusion spells, I'd appreciate a referral.

NineInchNall wrote:True enough there, but your Gleemax counterpart in name is one of the strongest supporters of the Table Rainbow Servant.

I'll give you the short version. My list of people I would murder in real life over D&D goes like this:

JaronK
Caelic
Anyone who thinks I am in any way related to Caelic.

I am fucking insulted that you would think I have anything in common at all with that retard. His guide to practical optimization manages to both encourage people to be dumpster diving assholes rules lawyer assholes while simultaneously encouraging you to not use tricks you don't have to dumpster dive for.

Throwing potions for a full attack is discouraged. Being an Incantatrix is encouraged.

Chill, dude. 8) The Gleemax Caelic is an asshat, and I was not implying any connection between you two beyond the similarity of your usernames. I've never seen anyone as quick to call "argument from silence" as that guy.

Scrolls can also work, as can wands and staffs.

So, get the right Planar Binding spell, and watch your Sorc not give a shit about his non-save based spells being scroll-based, b/c you beat up an Efreeti and told it to give you what you want (shinies!... err, scrolls/wands).

Also, get scrolls that have -multiple- spells on them; a scroll can have up to 6 spells on it; so that's 18 spells per efreeti you beat up for their Wishes).

The Mage of the Arcane Order is also a good one, since you have more slots, making 'repaying' the spell levels that you used easier.

Avoraciopoctules wrote: I would also be interested in learning about useful metamagic options available to beguilers. In particular, if there's anything that would layer a secondary effect onto large-scale illusion spells, I'd appreciate a referral.

Dazzling Illusion (Comp. Mage) - If you have Spell Focus (Illusion), this feat adds a dazzle effect to your illusion spells, dazzling enemies within 30 feet for 1 round with no save.

Unsettling Enchantment (Comp. Mage) - If you have Spell Focus (Enchantment), this feat gives your enchantment spells the ability to cloud opponents' minds even if they succeed on a save. They take a -2 penalty on attack rolls and AC for 1 round.

Mastery of Twisted Shadow (Player's Guide to Eberron) - for a free blur spell effect when you cast an illusion spell.

I like Dazzling Illusion on a Shadowcraft Mage, just for kicks.

Question: All these books together = not dumster diving?

WTF?

Kaelik wrote:I'll give you the short version. My list of people I would murder in real life over D&D goes like this:

JaronK

Question: why do you hate JaronK? I assume that people have problems with his Tier system based on the other thread that Frank created, but is it so faulty that he deserves to be stabbed in the face? Or is JaronK engaged in some kind of ass-hattery on some other RPG forum that I am unaware of?