The Gaming Den

So what happens if a caster prepares a Purified Corrupt spell, or a Corrupt Sanctified Spell?

RAW would mean either path would produce a spell with the Good and Evil subtypes simultaneously.

However, should there be an override? Should the feat granted subtype be dominant over the inherent one?

I'm kinda wondering what others think because my mind randomly came up with the idea of a Paladin using a corrupt spell, which they certainly could, and then thought about the alignment adding feats, which would mean a paladin could, for example, cast a Purified Serpents of Theggeron (maybe his arms turn into miniature couatls).

I don't know if there's a rule that states a spell can only be Good or evil, not both, this is just something that popped into my mind.

Remember, Palidins "can't cast spells with the evil subtype", and not "can only cast spells with the good subtype."

In the first, it doesn't matter what subtypes are on a spell because as long as "evil" is one of them, you can't cast it.

In the second, your idea would work. It is this loophole that lets a mage with that Frostburn feat that adds [cold] to any of his spells then get the benefits of cold specializtion feats to all his spells, and also get to cast all his spells without ASF with that ice armor with no ASF for cold spells.

Thematically, I get your point, but at no point did the designers of said feats ever make the choice that these feats can't be applied to a spell with a thematically opposite subtype, or that the feats would overwrite each other.

As a side-note, only a few Corrupt spells actually have the evil subtype, meaning that Paladins can cast them with no problems from their deity. Sure, some of those spells require something evil like a dwarf baby's heart, but Eschew Spell Components is just one of many ways to avoid that.

Are paladins actually incapable of casting Evil spells or are you talking about the obvious "you fall because your magic's the wrong colour" shit?

as far as few corrupt spells having the evil type, I just looked through some of the spells, and all the corrupt spells I saw had the evil type.

My real problem is the fact that only prepared casters can cast corrupt spells, along with paladins being prepared casters. It's one of those kinda cool images to see a paladin basically say "fuck it, it's the only way, and they matter more than me" and use an evil spell out of desperation. By RAW a paladin would have to plan for this. Or have a corrupt wand or something...

By RAW, they actually can't cast them (ditto for Clerics of the wrong alignment - note that arcane casters totally can).

Prak_Anima wrote:Are paladins actually incapable of casting Evil spells or are you talking about the obvious "you fall because your magic's the wrong colour" shit?

Paladin cast as clerics, so they suffer from the cleric's limitations regarding Law, Chaos, Evil, and Good spells.

Prak_Anima wrote: as far as few corrupt spells having the evil type, I just looked through some of the spells, and all the corrupt spells I saw had the evil type.

I'm pretty sure the BoVD spells are mostly evil, but Heroes of Horror and a few other supplements seem to have forgotten to add this when they printed Corrupt spells. I don't have a list for you.

How does one handle opposing types? I remember from a while back, the WotC website had an example of a "risen" succubus who took levels as a paladin. Their stance was that her subtype as an evil outsider meant that she continued to radiate an aura of evil, while her paladin status meant that she radiated an aura of good. So effectively, she would ping for a detect evil spell OR a detect good spell. Which makes sense RAW, but always seemed like a stupid compromise to me.

There's no "compromise" there - that's just what happens. A creature with the [Evil] subtype counts as evil for any spells or effects. This means that blasphemy, which affects "nonevil creatures" will not harm a creature with the [Evil] subtype, and detect evil will respond "yes, evil detected". A creature with a good alignment (especially paladins and good-aligned clerics) counts as good for any spells or effects. This means that holy word does not harm them, and detect good registers them as good. Note that detect evil doesn't care whether someone is good - only evil or not-evil.

The succubus paladin radiates both an aura of evil and an aura of good. There's no contradiction there - she emits both "evilons" (due to the [Evil] subtype) and "goodions" (due to being a good-aligned creature and also a paladin). She is immune to all four of blasphemy, dictum, holy word, and word of chaos. She detects "yes" to all four alignment detection spells. All four of chaos hammer, holy smite, order's wrath, and unholy blight deal their full effects.

Likewise, a spell with the [Good] descriptor responds as "good" to detect good, and is dispellable by dispel good. A spell with the [Evil] descriptor is detectable by detect evil and is dispellable by dispel evil. A spell that has both the [Good] and [Evil] descriptors has all of the above apply to it. It's both evil and good as far as other spells and effects are concerned.

It's that simple. You may think it's dumb, and you're entitled to think that, but that's how it actually works.

Koumei wrote:By RAW, they actually can't cast them (ditto for Clerics of the wrong alignment - note that arcane casters totally can).

K wrote:Paladin cast as clerics, so they suffer from the cleric's limitations regarding Law, Chaos, Evil, and Good spells.

Ah, right, forgot about that.

I'm pretty sure the BoVD spells are mostly evil, but Heroes of Horror and a few other supplements seem to have forgotten to add this when they printed Corrupt spells. I don't have a list for you.

ah, didn't think to check that, but it sounds about right. I'd be surprised if there weren't at least a few in Drow of the Underdark too, come to think of it.

Quantum:
Yeah, that's how it works out.

The trick is finding someway to make the mess make sense. Risen evil creatures or fallen good creatures work out fine, really. They're one alignment by nature, another by choice, that's fine.

but the spells... a spell that is both inherently good and evil is just... weird.

I realize it only came up at all because I asked about it, but it's still kinda bizarre. Can make sense in some contexts, though.


hmm... what should be the trade off for a feat that overwrites an alignment type on spells...
If it's balanced, I'd make Purify Spell overwrite the evil tag, and rename the RAW Purify Spell to Sanctify Spell, and I'd do likewise with Corrupt Spell and create a feat named Befoul Spell to overwrite the good tag. Sanctify would be a prerequisite for Purify, Likewise Corrupt for Befoul.

As a side note, The Word part of the "Wish and the Word" build counted as all alignments and so could use all the word-type spells without hurting himself.

Since we created the Wish and Word as a way of mocking WotC for bad mechanics..... well, you can guess our opinion on the matter.

Prak_Anima wrote:but the spells... a spell that is both inherently good and evil is just... weird.

This is why I prefer the interpretation that good and evil aren't absolutes and are really just teams.

K wrote:As a side note, The Word part of the "Wish and the Word" build counted as all alignments and so could use all the word-type spells without hurting himself.

Since we created the Wish and Word as a way of mocking WotC for bad mechanics..... well, you can guess our opinion on the matter.

I love the shitstorms those characters created on the CharOp boards.

And I've GMed for a player who had a character radiate all four alignments. LE Celestial Cleric of a CE god = detects as all.

Yeah, I do understand that that's how the rules work, it just seems so... awkward. In fact, it seems like something that a dick DM made up to trick a PC paladin into falling.

"It registers on detect evil? Then I attack!"

"Oh, sucks for you, that was one of the good guys! Fallen paladin!"

"...I hate you."

Quantumboost wrote:There's no "compromise" there - that's just what happens. A creature with the [Evil] subtype counts as evil for any spells or effects. This means that blasphemy, which affects "nonevil creatures" will not harm a creature with the [Evil] subtype, and detect evil will respond "yes, evil detected". A creature with a good alignment (especially paladins and good-aligned clerics) counts as good for any spells or effects. This means that holy word does not harm them, and detect good registers them as good. Note that detect evil doesn't care whether someone is good - only evil or not-evil.

The succubus paladin radiates both an aura of evil and an aura of good. There's no contradiction there - she emits both "evilons" (due to the [Evil] subtype) and "goodions" (due to being a good-aligned creature and also a paladin). She is immune to all four of blasphemy, dictum, holy word, and word of chaos. She detects "yes" to all four alignment detection spells. All four of chaos hammer, holy smite, order's wrath, and unholy blight deal their full effects.

Likewise, a spell with the [Good] descriptor responds as "good" to detect good, and is dispellable by dispel good. A spell with the [Evil] descriptor is detectable by detect evil and is dispellable by dispel evil. A spell that has both the [Good] and [Evil] descriptors has all of the above apply to it. It's both evil and good as far as other spells and effects are concerned.

It's that simple. You may think it's dumb, and you're entitled to think that, but that's how it actually works.

Gotta roll a Tan'ari Kantian Paladin, b/c that shit would be balling.

Get a Hezrou as a cohort to cast blasphemy at the start of a hard fight, or just spam Chaos Hammers, and Unholy Blights.

Succubuss pally.

CR 7, 6 HD; you can play this at lvl 7 imo. Make them a 7 HD creature, and add nothing but HD, skills, saves and BaB for that HD. Yes, it limits class levels.

Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 26

Cha mod is 26 - 15 so +11, +10
Int is 16 - 14 = +2
Wis is 14 - 13 = +0
Dex is 13 - 13 = +0 mod
Con is 13 - 10 = +2 mod
Str is 13 - 8 = +4

So:
Str +4
Dex +2
Con +0
Int +2
Wis +0
Cha +10

If you wanted to play at level 1; make them an ToF Aasimar, and make some sort of ability and stat progression that's 7 HD long.

CryptoSolipsist wrote:"It registers on detect evil? Then I attack!"

"Oh, sucks for you, that was one of the good guys! Fallen paladin!"

"...I hate you."

“Detect Evil” is a wonderful spell and the most misunderstood one in the old book. As a DM I used to practically have a standard disclaimer to any would be paladin or user of Detect Evil, “You know, detect evil ain’t know alignment.” Detect evil is what it is and no more, it detects the presence of evil. It doesn’t mean that the person being detected is of evil alignment (he might be wearing evil armor unknowingly or he might be of an evil lineage that radiates “evil” while not personally being of evil alignment … and by the RAW you can actually radiate good and evil at the same time – an outsider paladin for example). It is not a useless spell, it has a use, just not the use some people want it to have.

Note: Bestow Curse is [Evil]. Know what this means? If you go around cursing every man and his dog, Detect Evil will ping, detecting an [Evil] aura on them - the spell. Hilarity ensues.

Never thought of that. I assumed that Detect Evil would reveal the types of auras in the area in addition to their strength... seems that was an unfounded assumption (as I just checked the SRD).

perhaps the detect [alignment] spells should just be condensed into a "Read Alignment" spell that displays all alignment based auras and their strengths.

mean_liar wrote:Never thought of that. I assumed that Detect Evil would reveal the types of auras in the area in addition to their strength... seems that was an unfounded assumption (as I just checked the SRD).

There is a strength level, but it's wacked. It's good to know if there is a Balrog standing next to you (HOLY SHIT IT'S A ..... CRAP I'M STUNNED) but other than that the epic evil villian problably doesn't radiate any higher than a generic mid level undead.

The other problem is how incredibly easy it is to circumvent. Undetectable Alignment is a 2nd level bard and cleric spell.

tzor wrote:

mean_liar wrote:Never thought of that. I assumed that Detect Evil would reveal the types of auras in the area in addition to their strength... seems that was an unfounded assumption (as I just checked the SRD).

There is a strength level, but it's wacked. It's good to know if there is a Balrog standing next to you (HOLY SHIT IT'S A ..... CRAP I'M STUNNED) but other than that the epic evil villian problably doesn't radiate any higher than a generic mid level undead.

Honestly, as soon as a human can creep me out the way that looking at a walking corpse can, then I know that they're very evil.

I'd look at it like an uncanny valley.

You can see an actual human, and be creeped out, as if you had looked at a real, rotted, zombie (and a big one too; like a Hydra or something).