The Gaming Den

Is there any reason not to just make all elves gray elves (except drow), all dwarves deep dwarves, all gnomes forest gnomes, and all halflings deep halflings to save players the trouble of choosing a slightly suboptimal subrace?

I usually try and keep people from realizing that forest gnomes exist. No good can come of them.

A Retard wrote:Yes, because then we wouldn't have the Baskin Robbins rip-off of 31 flavors of "elf".

Seriously? There is no reason to not limit the availible races in your, or any other's game.

Far better to place limits such as:

• "They don't exist because they suck, ergo evolution ate them a million years ago."

Then say:

• "Go ahead! I'm not gonna tell you that your choice is mechanically inferior, I'm instead going to let you discover how good you could have been by letting your character suck for the duration of this campaign!"

And seriously, gnomes? I care about gnomes only slightly more than I care about elves, which is to say that I don't care about either.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Is there any reason not to just make all elves gray elves (except drow), all dwarves deep dwarves, all gnomes forest gnomes, and all halflings deep halflings to save players the trouble of choosing a slightly suboptimal subrace?

No reason that I can see. Forest gnomes are even better flavored than rock gnomes. Same with grey elves.

NineInchNall wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Is there any reason not to just make all elves gray elves (except drow), all dwarves deep dwarves, all gnomes forest gnomes, and all halflings deep halflings to save players the trouble of choosing a slightly suboptimal subrace?

No reason that I can see. Forest gnomes are even better flavored than rock gnomes. Same with grey elves.

Yeah, as I see it each of those subraces (with the possible exception of deep halflings) is just the base race but more so.

I actually only remember quite clearly only three variations of elves and dwarves. Forest, High and Dark for elves and Mountain, Hill and Deep for dwarves. Hill and High are the normal varieties for some odd reason, Forest and Mountain are the traditional varieties and Dark and Deep are the usually evil varieties.

Deep Dwarves = Duergar?
LA = 2?

You want to exterminate Dwarves as pc race?

detto halflings only more so LA of 3 or 4?

What did forest gnomes do?

Forest Gnomes are exactly like Rock Gnomes except that they get pass without trace for free all the time, their +1 racial attack bonus extends to orcs and lizardfolk, a +4 bonus to hide and +4 more to hide in woodland areas, elvish and sylvan as additional free languages, and they speak with woodland animals instead of burrowing animals (note: many animals are both).

Deep Dwarves are exactly like Hill Dwarves except that they get a -1 to attack rolls in daylight but all their Dwarf abilities are increased by 50%. So +3 to saves instead of +2, 90' darkvision instead of 60, etc.

Deep Halflings are just halflings who trade the racial bonus to acrobatics for 60' darkvision.

Gray Elves are just elves that have an additional -2 to Strength and +2 to Intelligence.

And yes, all of these are the master races of their type, especially if you want to play a Wizard.

-Username17

Ah, should have looked it up.
Got them confused with Duergar and Svirfneblin.

Hicks wrote:"They don't exist because they suck, ergo evolution ate them a million years ago."

this just gives me a mental image of Evolution as an actual statted creature, like an intelligent magical terrasque and physically eating entire races...

Or a god sitting on a throne making species fight in his arena and unmaking the losing species in each bout.

There is no evolution, just a list of creatures Vin Diesel allows to live.

-Username17

That ... makes me want to make Vin Diesel the deity of evolution in my game.

NineInchNall wrote:That ... makes me want to make Vin Diesel the deity of evolution in my game.

exactly what I was thinking.

And he'd have to be an Orc Barbarian in my mind...

FrankTrollman wrote: Deep Halflings are just halflings who trade the racial bonus to acrobatics for 60' darkvision.

Aaaaand Stone Cunning! Sweet, sweet rogue auto search within 10' in stone areas with a +2 bonus. I'm pretty sure Vin Diesel actually is a deep halfling.

Isn't there a Halfling subrace that grants +9,001 to Hide checks (between Size, Dex and Racial)?

There's also one that trades the +1 to all saves for a bonus feat, like a human. Which is funny in NWN2: because they can take the feat that gives +1 to all saves and to AC (in regular D&D it only grants the save bonus, letting you swap your +1 to saves for a feat that gives +1 to saves). So if you ever wanted to be a normal halfling, you'd take that subrace instead and get +1 AC for free.

I always liked the Fey'ri elf subrace (it helps that the picture was, IIRC, a mango-style demon chick). Now the LA blows midgets, but you can do the good old Lesser Planetouched trick and seriously reduce it from +2 to +0, just by changing type & subtype.

on a slightly related note:

Pass without trace says "The subject or subjects can move through any type of terrain and leave neither footprints nor scent"

I'm being an asshole nitpicker here but that could be interpreted as having the ability to move through any terrain even if it's restricted and also leave no trace.

Koumei wrote:Isn't there a Halfling subrace that grants +9,001 to Hide checks (between Size, Dex and Racial)?

You're probably thinking of the Whisper Gnome (and the Forest Gnome is good at hiding too).

Catharz wrote:Is there any reason not to just make all elves gray elves (except drow), all dwarves deep dwarves, all gnomes forest gnomes, and all halflings deep halflings to save players the trouble of choosing a slightly suboptimal subrace?

The only subrace you neglected to mention that I might miss would be the wood elf (for archery).

I'd probably miss the wild elves. My favorite character is one, but I could probably make do... it would just make his race class combo even odder...

the whisper gnome is the la+ race from the "I hump stone" book right?

A_Cynic wrote:the whisper gnome is the la+ race from the "I hump stone" book right?

Whisper gnomes don't have a level adjustment. Their retarded cousins the chaos gnomes do.

Anything that can be done to make the races more

1) distinct
2) iconic
3) fun

is well worth it.

Getting rid of the stupid number of subraces is a VERY good place to start. If your games honestly needs a racial distintintion between dwarves who live in hills and those who live in mountains your game is uber nerd rage inducing menutia devoted pointless blithering shit.

souran wrote:...uber, nerd-rage-inducing, minutia-devoted, pointless blithering shit.

So, SO sigged.

I feel the need to clarify my wariness about forest gnomes. Their flavor is most delicious to myself, I just don't terribly like how badly they rape the RNG with their hide bonuses. It is not terribly unusual for a level 1 forest gnome to have a +20 to hide checks in a forest.

I suppose skills are fucked anyway so there isn't too much harm in it.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Is there any reason not to just make all elves gray elves (except drow), all dwarves deep dwarves, all gnomes forest gnomes, and all halflings deep halflings to save players the trouble of choosing a slightly suboptimal subrace?

I like Wild Elf the most out of all the elves. Ninja Hippies.