A list of changes from 3.5 to Tomes

[deathdealingjawa]

I was wondering if there is a summary of the changes from 3.5 to the Tomes? I am trying to put together a list for my players who are use to playing 3.5. I am not listing the changes that come into play with the wish economy, since the characters can't access it (game caps out at level 10)

Some things that come to mind:
Armor/Feats/Magic Items/Shields progress with a characters level now.
The power of magic items is based on a character's level.
The way Undead work has changed a lot. (not sure how to summarize the changes)
Money can not buy everything.

What are the other changes, or a better way to summarize the listed changes?

[Username17]

One of the points is that it's a series of optional addons that may or may not be used together. Each book is truly a book and intended to be stand alone.

If I was going to pull a pathfinder and actually write a whole stand-alone ruleset for 3.x D&D I would do so with that explicit goal and with the understanding that I was doing that. But as-is the only skill we really consistently remove is Open Locks. With full power of the editing pen I would definitely purge Spellcraft as well.

-Username17

[Caedrus]

One of the points is that it's a series of optional addons that may or may not be used together. Each book is truly a book and intended to be stand alone.

If I was going to pull a pathfinder and actually write a whole stand-alone ruleset for 3.x D&D I would do so with that explicit goal and with the understanding that I was doing that. But as-is the only skill we really consistently remove is Open Locks. With full power of the editing pen I would definitely purge Spellcraft as well.

-Username17

I can certainly see your reasoning there, Frank. I myself have purged Spellcraft from my games, dividing the skill's functions up into the various knowledge skills.

[Lago PARANOIA]

While I think that there are defensible reasons to keep spot and listen as separate skills, I do find it a bit annoying to have to require players to roll two sets of dice to notice if a monster is sneaking up on them.

There's no reason move silently and hide should be separate skills; all that does is screw over non-rogues and further screw over PCs by giving them two chances to fail.

The Profession and Perform skills just don't do enough; they become obsolete pretty quickly. They could use an expansion of purpose.

I like the idea behind the Concentrate skill but I find it very annoying that the only people who have a reason to pump it are spellcasters.

I would also like a pony.

[Username17]

The question of how many skills there should be is a really open one. There is a severe danger of reducing things to the point of "Know Stuff, Do Stuff, Say Stuff" and there's the fundamental and philosophical question of whether there should be enough skills that people split their skill points up or not. Certainly if you combine Hide and Move Silently into one skill called Stealth you're going to see a lot more peeps with maximum Stealth ranks than if you don't.

Indeed, greater even than the question of what a 10th level guy with max ranks should be able to do, is the question of how much you should be able to get for a skill point. If being a social guy requires frequent Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Gather Information, and Bluff checks then a skill point is actually kind of small. If on the other hand you can play the entire Social mini-game with just a Diplomacy bonus, that skill point is pretty big. In short, the question of whether a skill point should be buying you into an entire mini-game or merely a single action in that mini game is an open one.

But here are some skills that are totally on the chopping block:

Open Locks: Holy crap, this skill does not do anything at all. Disable Device is by any account everything Open Locks is and more. It's not even fair.

Knowledge: Nobility Not only are there entire societies - even in D&D land - that have no nobles; but nothing it does is something that wouldn't be logically covered by Knowledge: Geography or Knowledge: History. Why the fuck is this a skill?

Spellcraft: How is spellcraft different from Knowledge: Arcana or Knowledge: Religion? It's a bullshit uber skill that exists for no purpose but to give Wizards a free identification on anything "magic" which is basically fucking everything at high levels.

Knowledge: Local This ability simply doesn't make any sense. If not completely folded into Knowledge: Geography, it should become a tag skill like the Dungeonomicon Profession overhaul.

-Username17

[Judging__Eagle]

I like making Knowledge: Local a tag skill like Profession and Language.

I thought that spellcraft was only to:

1. Identify Spells
2. Read Scrolls, and spellbooks
2. Do spell scribing into a spellbook

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm

It really doesn't say anything about identifying creatures or items. Things that Know (Arcana) would answer anyway.

I'll be honest, I much prefer skills that already are redundant to be mixed; don't mind trivial skills being made into either tag (Profession, Speak language, Local Knowledge) or stackable-tag skills (Perform; Craft); but I'm not keen on folding skills that easily.

I tend to value "doing stuff" about as high as "fighting stuff", and players who spend points in skills should get benefits for bringing new things to the table aside from a BaB and weapons, or a high Casting Stat and spells.

Which means that the Barbarian with Cartographer is going to get use out of that skill. Not much, but some. I won't mix Hide/Move Silently into 'Stealth' though, I've explained why I don't like the idea in several previous posts/rants.

I'm not sure if that's at cross purposes, but it's what I feel comfortable with.

[Maxus]

What are the other changes, or a better way to summarize the listed changes?

The Tome versions of common martial classes are quite a bit above the SRD versions, but actually aren't as bad as they look. BAB and combat maneuvers get some streamlining.

Sahuagin kick your ass.

[deathdealingjawa]

Just to clarify I am using all of the core Tome materials for my game. I am trying to compile a list to summarize how/what they modified in the rules. That way my players have an easy reference, and can get to playing faster.

Other changes of notes:
Magic items
Magic items in the work so differently that standard d&d magic items are no longer applicable.
Magic items give flat bonuses as a general rule.
Players are limited to 8 permanent magic item effects.
Spells
Polymorph and similar spells have set scaling bonuses.
Wish has been tamed, but not castrated.
Combat
Resolving combat maneuvers have been changed, if you have a higher bab than the target gain a benefit in addition to performing the maneuver.
Grapple has been more streamlined and grants additional options.

other changes of note, or a better way to summarize the changes?

Wishing the denizens happy Thanksgiving.

[Judging__Eagle]

I think that someone here wrote up a PDF which summarized all of the major changes in the Tome material

[TavishArtair]

There's also another point, Frank, where you have some skills that cover Mini Games, and others that cover Instant Actions, i.e. things that don't have a minigame, you just roll it and win or lose and then move on. In this case making more skills to cover it, just because the Social Minigame (for instance) is big, is rather punishing, because you create a situation where people who buy into those skills are paying extra to be good at something that often doesn't really matter, and doesn't get as much showtime.

[deathdealingjawa]

JE think you could find a link for it? I did a few searches involving "Tome" "Changes" "3.5" and other terms but I haven't been able to find a change log yet. If anyone posts the link to it I would think of you as a wonderful person, or something.

[Judging__Eagle]

no dice, i've been looking through pages with Frank & K and PDF; and it's not really giving me anything relevant.

I'm thinking that going through the campaign threads in the In the Trenches might have something; maybe Maxus wrote it up, or had it in one of his threads.