The Gaming Den

You know how Pathfinder abbreviated some skills? Like Hide and Move Silently fusioned danced into Stealth?

I like that. I like that alot.

Here's the thing. Tome is, and I find this super fucking understandable, meant to be backwards compatible with 3.5. So you can't change the skill set. What I think what should be done, somewhere, anywhere, is include some kind of 'How To' guide on how you can do so. An optional rule, as it were, to abbreviate the skills Pathfinder style. To accomodate such changes, what do you think should be included?

God_of_Awesome wrote:You know how Pathfinder abbreviated some skills? Like Hide and Move Silently fusioned danced into Stealth?

I like that. I like that alot.

Here's the thing. Tome is, and I find this super fucking understandable, meant to be backwards compatible with 3.5. So you can't change the skill set. What I think what should be done, somewhere, anywhere, is include some kind of 'How To' guide on how you can do so. An optional rule, as it were, to abbreviate the skills Pathfinder style. To accomodate such changes, what do you think should be included?

Aren't the tomes already meant to be modular? Races of war (?) already cuts Open Lock off, so other skills wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

I like Iron Heroes' skill groups thing for a combination of making skill points go farther while maintaining backwards compatibility.

I've always found the creation of the Stealth skill to be one of the worst things done to modifications of the 3.0 and 3.5 skill system. Hiding, and moving silently are two very different things; and both involve very different types of actions, that can be mutually exclusive. One can hide, and not move silently; likewise, one can not hide, and move silently.

Judging__Eagle wrote:I've always found the creation of the Stealth skill to be one of the worst things done to modifications of the 3.0 and 3.5 skill system. Hiding, and moving silently are two very different things; and both involve very different types of actions, that can be mutually exclusive. One can hide, and not move silently; likewise, one can not hide, and move silently.

Why the hell would we need two skills to stay undetected? Making them separate is only throwing a bucket of skill points to the trash, in a game where Invisibility and Silence are level 2 spells.

Have some archived conversations to help you along in that quest GoA:

Old IMHO thread
Recentish IMOI thread
My work on making skills not suck that also included some consolidation

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Edit:

Guyr Adamantine wrote:

Judging__Eagle wrote:I've always found the creation of the Stealth skill to be one of the worst things done to modifications of the 3.0 and 3.5 skill system. Hiding, and moving silently are two very different things; and both involve very different types of actions, that can be mutually exclusive. One can hide, and not move silently; likewise, one can not hide, and move silently.

Why the hell would we need two skills to stay undetected? Making them separate is only throwing a bucket of skill points to the trash, in a game where Invisibility and Silence are level 2 spells.

JE's bringing in legitimate real world concerns because the two things are actually quite different. I think it's irrelevant in game because the lack of facing makes the two tasks largely indistinguishable, but if the game included it you could make a strong case for keeping them separate. There's a longer conversation on it in the recentish IMOI thread linked above so I'll skip recovering that ground here.

TarkisFlux wrote:JE's bringing in legitimate real world concerns because the two things are actually quite different. I think it's irrelevant in game because the lack of facing makes the two tasks largely indistinguishable, but if the game included it you could make a strong case for keeping them separate. There's a longer conversation on it in the recentish IMOI thread linked above so I'll skip recovering that ground here.

I've had a quick look over the discussion. Interesting, but I just think that the game isn't a good enough simulation of the real world to keep them apart. It does well with many abstractions, such as facing, for example.


I love the third thread you linked. Favourite skill fix Ive seen.

Straight up the fact that Joe Paladin gets 1 lousy skill point a level means that no amount of skill consolidation short of "Do Stuff, Say Stuff, Know Stuff" is ever going to get them an acceptable proportion of the skills. And the fact that Ginny the Gray Elf Rogue seriously walks in with 13 skill points a level means a drastic reduction in skills like that will never ever work.

The question of how many skills there should be is of course an open one, but I should say that a fair minimum should be that a Gray Elf Rogue should not be left with unspendable skill points even at 16th level (4 stat raises and a headband later). So there should at minimum be 18 skills. Less than that and you can seriously walk in with skill points you can´t spend, which is offensive just as a concept. Even then, keep in mind that 18 total skills is not a target, it´s a hard coded minimum. The target would be a number that is at least that.

But the question still remains of what you want to do as regards dividing up where those skills fall. Frankly, if sneaking and scouting is supposed to matter at all, having it take up just 10 percent of the skill space with Stealth and Perception is kind of weird. And with it being anything like a major part of the game you´ve basically made a couple of "super skills" that are actually so mandatory that you have in essence created a skill tax and made everyone get the same stealth bonus.

So frankly, in a game with a very limited talking mini-game and no driving mini-game or anything along those lines, making the stealth mini-game into such a tiny fraction of the skill list seems like something that requires being functionally retarded to think is a good plan. I mean, aWoD only has 21 skills, and it has several skills given over to using modern technology, and it still has 4 skills for sneaking and noticing shit.

Now that being said, the place for all the skills is very up in the air. Having a skill for Swim and a different one for Jump is simply not sustainable unless characters are getting a fuck tonne more skills than the ones who aren´t our Gray Elf jack-o-trades will ever see.

-Username17

Non-casters getting 2 skill points a level is offensive on it's own.

I'm not particularly following the aWoD threads anymore, but I can only find Stealth and Perception in your aWoD IMOI thread Frank that might relate to the stealth / scouting minigames. Where are the other skills that enter into it?

Aside from those though, the Disguise skill, the Bluff skill, and even the Diplomacy skill are all useful in the sneaking / scouting mini game. There's no reason you can't dress up as a guard or put on a giant suit (if the rules supported it) and go lie your way through their encampment until you get to what you wanted. They're fairly iconic uses of those skills even, just downplayed by the rules. The fact that no one does them doesn't mean they don't work though. And you can probably use those approaches to sneak around with your entire group.

One perception skill to oppose them all is problematic though, and Sense Motive and Search should at least remain separate from the other perception bits.

Guyr Adamantine wrote:

Judging__Eagle wrote:I've always found the creation of the Stealth skill to be one of the worst things done to modifications of the 3.0 and 3.5 skill system. Hiding, and moving silently are two very different things; and both involve very different types of actions, that can be mutually exclusive. One can hide, and not move silently; likewise, one can not hide, and move silently.

Why the hell would we need two skills to stay undetected? Making them separate is only throwing a bucket of skill points to the trash, in a game where Invisibility and Silence are level 2 spells.

It should be noted that those two spells only really give a +20 to your checks when moving; and a +40 when standing still. They're big effects, but they are neither absolute, nor are they the be all and end all when compared to the base skills abilities; instead they are merely "boosting your skill modifier" not "bypassing being seen or heard".

You can still be seen and heard, you are not completely transparent and completely silent.

Invisibility and Complete silence are achievable 24 hours per day by a 5th level character who maxed their ranks (+8 mod), got an appropriate item (+5 to check) and had a decent stat (+2 from say 14 Dex. If they move at 1/2 speed, they are just as Silent, and Invisible as the wizard who cast a spell.

Likewise, Invisibility and Silence are able to be detected with relative ease by the time the enemies use it normally; and this is just through 'standard' Listen/Spot checks.

I remember a DM thinking that he could use an Invisible spell caster against us. The Ranger always knew where the supposedly 'invisible' NPC was just from Spot checks. Our characters were level 6, and items had actually been pretty hard to get, stats were a bit higher than average though, but not that noticabley so.

Really, Invis and Silence are ways to maximize an already stealthy character's modifiers. Getting a +50 Hide or Move Silently modifier at level 7 to 10 is pretty good, but it's merely RNG hacking, not changing the parameters by which you can be observed.

Invisibility is basically like Jump (+10, 20 or 30 to Jump checks), Glibness (+30 Bluff), or Expeditious retreat (+30' to Speed; and bonus to jump checks due to high speed) or Bull's Strength (+4 Enhancement to Strenght). It's a noticable buff to a specfic area on a character, but it won't let them say... talk to a dragon unseen. Mostly b/c Dragons have Blindsight; and seriously, only a Rogue will take anything remotely resembling the Darkstalker feat.

The rogue with darkstalker can talk to a dragon while unseen; and the wizard who casts Invisibility will become an appetizer if they think that the dragon wouldn't see them.

Which brings up a very interesting point.

How do you adjudicate when a hidden creature, taunts and verbally harassers people that know 'roughly' where the unseen creature is, but can't actually see said creature?

Bilbo Baggins talked with Smaug, but was not seen. Smaug knew where Bilbo was, 'sort of', but couldn't actually see him.

Would a stealth skill be willing to have such a split? If so, why is that different from having two separate skills?

All that I see is that stealth characters get more skill points to spend, and that some characters might get forms of stealth that they were not supposed to have.

An ambushing character might have a large Hide modifier, and no move silently. A sniper with a high powered ranged attack could be such a character. While an other character could be completely silent, and look like a giant clown with sharpened teeth and a chopping knife in one hand and a cleaver in the other. The fact that such character ideas need to be special cases within these new 'stealth' rules shows problems within the stealth rules to adjudicate how stealth works is


Regarding issues on 'facing'; the Hide fix that was written up pretty much solves 'facing'. If you don't make your listen check, you can't hear someone who is moving silently; and if you fail a spot check you can't see them either.

Cover is never needed to perform either of those things, you can hide from someone and still be engaged in combat with that person, this is more a cat-and-mouse type of fight than it is a straight melee. Cover simply makes you unable to be seen at all, and people looking for you won't know where you might leave the cover, or if you have left it, unless they are observing all parts of the cover.

JE, you are totally 100% wrong regarding Silence.

Silence is total.

Invis is only bonus though.

Silence is actually still noticeable, since there is a 30' radius where no sound is passing through. Someone can drop a pin on the other side of a silenced area, and the sound will come from wrong angles. Not directly from the source, but echoing from the sides and over the top.

Not being able to hear sound in an area, or hearing things oddly, is just as noticeable to a character with a high listen modifier as any sound would be.

You're right that silence isn't a bonus; but then it also means that it's a 100% noticeable effect when withing range of the source, and a XX% noticeable effect when further away.

Putting them both at similar modifiers is probably a good way of dealing with them, since they're both the same level, and both are meant to affect opposite sides of the hiding coin.

I think it's rather interesting that Silence is a Cleric spell, while Invis is for Wizards, and only Clerics get Detect Traps.

I forgot about it while writing, remembered it since it just gives a radius, then forgot that the spell gives just 'silence'. :/

Judging__Eagle wrote: I think it's rather interesting that Silence is a Cleric spell, while Invis is for Wizards, and only Clerics get Detect Traps.

And Bards get silence and invisibility!

They also get Zone of Silence and Sphere of Invisibility, which can make for a pretty good party masking setup... they can even see and hear each other.

That they do, and here's the kicker. Zone of Silence lets the people within the area to communicate with each other. Sphere of Invis can be cast on a party member that will not be casting offensively; like say, a cleric or druid that is summoning monsters for the luls.

Silence is not even remotely similar to invisibility. It's the audible equivalent of darkness.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:Silence is not even remotely similar to invisibility. It's the audible equivalent of darkness.

-Username17

Yes, the equivalent of Invisibility would be more along the lines of Ghostform or some other means of becoming incorporeal, like polymorph.

Or, ofcourse, Superior Invisibility.

Improved Invis is still only +40/+20 to hide checks. when still/moving.

The benefit is that you can attack while the buff is active.

Huh? I'm talking about Superior Invisibility, the silly one that nevertheless made it into Complete Arcane and Spell Compendium.

It makes the recipient impossible to hear, that's what I'm getting at.

Oh, I thought you were using a previous name of the spell, not a new spell using a name that sounded similar to the the 2e and 3.0 names of the spell.

Impossible to hear? That's actually selectively useful. Being able to speak is pretty useful imo, it lets you cast spells, or talk to someone.

Nobody knows what Superior Invisibility actually does. It's incredibly poorly written.

Alternately, you know exactly what it does 9or at least is meant to) - it's Cloud Mind that affects everyone, except you are the one affected and made unperceivable, so no [Mind-Affecting] or Will save.

So it's a Quantum Game Effect - you either don't know what it's supposed to do, or how in the name of Sauron it's supposed to accomplish that. One way or the other, nobody can tell how does a Superior Invis.'d character doing stuff in front of you look like.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Which brings up a very interesting point.

How do you adjudicate when a hidden creature, taunts and verbally harassers people that know 'roughly' where the unseen creature is, but can't actually see said creature?

Bilbo Baggins talked with Smaug, but was not seen. Smaug knew where Bilbo was, 'sort of', but couldn't actually see him.

Would a stealth skill be willing to have such a split? If so, why is that different from having two separate skills?

This isn't an issue with a split or merged stealth skill. This is a character that was not detected while they and may or may not have been moving and may or may not have been hiding behind things who happened to also be taunting someone. Taunting would seem to counter the move silent aspect of it, but that's not an issue for a stealth skill that only determines if they can locate / notice you when you don't want them to. The fact that the taunting didn't give away his location only tells us that Smaug needs more points in listen so he can get the exact square of his taunter.

Judging__Eagle wrote:All that I see is that stealth characters get more skill points to spend, and that some characters might get forms of stealth that they were not supposed to have.

An ambushing character might have a large Hide modifier, and no move silently. A sniper with a high powered ranged attack could be such a character. While an other character could be completely silent, and look like a giant clown with sharpened teeth and a chopping knife in one hand and a cleaver in the other. The fact that such character ideas need to be special cases within these new 'stealth' rules shows problems within the stealth rules to adjudicate how stealth works is.

Ambushers use cover. They're specifically trying not to move around, and wouldn't have any use for either hide or move silently. The rules currently support these characters even with a merged stealth skill.

Silent killer clowns only matter against someone who is asleep or effectively blind, or if your guys are behind the same cover as the ambushers; in other words when you completely take the hide / spot checks out of the scenario. Otherwise they wouldn't get two feet without being spotted / noticed, silent or no, and once spotted their silence means shit. You can argue that's as intended, I just don't see that as a worthwhile benefit [Edit] or as a viable concept past low levels.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Regarding issues on 'facing'; the Hide fix that was written up pretty much solves 'facing'. If you don't make your listen check, you can't hear someone who is moving silently; and if you fail a spot check you can't see them either.

Cover is never needed to perform either of those things, you can hide from someone and still be engaged in combat with that person, this is more a cat-and-mouse type of fight than it is a straight melee. Cover simply makes you unable to be seen at all, and people looking for you won't know where you might leave the cover, or if you have left it, unless they are observing all parts of the cover.

Yes, I am aware of how they took a skill that wasn't really a skill because it relied on physical objects and conditions that would have generally rendered you unseen anyway and turned it into a skill that actually allowed you hide in a crowd or field or whatever as long as you hadn't actually been pointed out. This is a better formulation of the skill in game; my contention is that it destroyed any meaningful difference between it and move silently.

Are you in a room with someone you're trying to not be noticed by? Roll both. Are you behind cover? Opponent takes the same penalty to both his checks. Penalties for distance? Same for both. Movement penalties? Same. Stat mod? Same. Seriously, they do the same thing, work the same way, use the same numbers, and effectively are the same skill post change just with different fluff. Against an opponent who has the same ranks in spot and listen (who will take 10 for the moment) you effectively roll twice and take the lowest to avoid detection. It's only slightly less stupid if they actually roll.

So when I'm bitching about facing, it's because if it was in the game you could formulate a hide skill that didn't look exactly the same as the move silently skill and would be a worthwhile addition to the game instead of just an extra chance to roll badly with the same numbers to get discovered in the same way. If the skills worked differently, like they do in the real world with facing and shit, I'd be all for their separate inclusions.

The problem is that often hiding and move silently are linked.

I mean, you hear a sound, you're generally going to turn to look to see what made it, and chances are if the thing making the sound isn't behind cover or in the shadows, you're probably going to see it, now that you're actively looking for it.

Granted, it's somewhat of an abstraction, but then, so is the entire game, with the "You face in all 180 degrees at once" system.

Making checks for both and then two more opposed checks for sound and sight is just way too many checks and gives the rogue a bunch of chances to fail.

That being said, D&D could probably use a stealth semi-fail state where the enemy thinks he saw something or hears a random sounds and goes on partial alert.

RC2 wrote:Granted, it's somewhat of an abstraction, but then, so is the entire game, with the "You face in all 180 degrees at once" system.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Oh, I thought you were using a previous name of the spell, not a new spell using a name that sounded similar to the the 2e and 3.0 names of the spell.

Impossible to hear? That's actually selectively useful. Being able to speak is pretty useful imo, it lets you cast spells, or talk to someone.

Being impossible to hear has no bearing on casting spells. And this is D&D, get yourself some Telepathy.

In addition, it in fact gives you a +infinity to your move silent check, and an additional +infinity to your Spot check:

Specific wording is:

"except that it masks image, scent, and sound alike, concealing the subject from all senses except touch."

In case you wondered, it also says "While invisible, the subject exudes no scent and is undetectable by scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight."

and "Superior invisibility renders the recipient immune to detection by see invisibility, faerie fire, glitterdust, invisibility purge, and dust of appearance, although creatures under the effect of the spell can be detected by true seeing."

So in fact, 8th level spells are better than skill points. Of course, that shouldn't surprise anyone, because 3rd level spells are better than skill points.