The Gaming Den

Seriously. I have had plenty of opportunities to read/see Dune, and have literally never seen or heard anything even remotely interesting... Other, perhaps, than the sand worms, and they ain't interesting enough.

So what is it about Dune that has some people liking it, some people loving it, and some people jizzing all over uninterested third parties with fanwank?

I suspect it's mostly legacy. Dune's nothing special, and in fact looks cheesy and dated from a modern perspective, but it was probably groundbreaking compared to what else was being published in 1965. I'm pretty sure most 60s sci-fi didn't create the kind of complete, sophisticated portrait of environment, politics, and culture that Dune did. Nowadays, we take this kind of world-building for granted.

Also, the role of spice, and thus the planet Dune, in the setting's infrastructure obviously mirrors real-world geopolitical situations that became more significant in the 1970s and '80s. So Frank Herbert got some wise old prophet cred from some later readers for that.

I'm still not sure how any of that stuff would attract a fanbase in the internet generation, though. Especially since I keep hearing about how the new Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson books suck.

I like the book because it is the only book I have read that conveys an atmosphere of intrigue, of plans within plans. As a bonus the world is consistent within itself - that is rare by itself.

Murtak wrote:I like the book because it is the only book I have read that conveys an atmosphere of intrigue, of plans within plans. As a bonus the world is consistent within itself - that is rare by itself.

Try reading the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series by George R. R. Martin. First one is "A Game of Thrones."

There's more intrigue than you'll know what to do with.

Caedrus wrote:

Murtak wrote:I like the book because it is the only book I have read that conveys an atmosphere of intrigue, of plans within plans. As a bonus the world is consistent within itself - that is rare by itself.

Try reading the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series by George R. R. Martin. First one is "A Game of Thrones."

There's more intrigue than you'll know what to do with.

if only he would finish the damn series...

Game on,
fbmf

Murtak wrote:I like the book because it is the only book I have read that conveys an atmosphere of intrigue, of plans within plans. As a bonus the world is consistent within itself - that is rare by itself.

Not really, I mean it always upset me that in one of the books (God Emperor I think), there's a massive time jump, of like 10,000 years or some shit... And yet the technology stays exactly the same. They're still using lasguns and shield belts and still haven't found a way to navigate without the spice. I mean seriously, a 10,000 year jump and there's no technical development at all. For a sci-fi novel, that's pretty damn inexcusable and just totally broke the series for me.

I’ve always liked dune; with the understanding that I can simply ignore the things I don’t like. I think dune spirals into stupidity so I generally (like any proper time lord) retreat backwards with the prequils written by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson.

Dune is fascinating, not because of what it does, but because of what it doesn’t do. It is an interesting web of organizational fuckups on a massive scale. The basic world of Dune is effectively the start of a dark ages; space travel technology is FUBAR and if it wasn’t for the glory that was before it would be dead. (Screw the spice, there is no longer anyone to build the heighliners (in the prequel it is the Tleilaxu that destroy the underground world of the people who built them) and this means that technological collapse is guaranteed in the next millennium.) The Bene Gesserit creates a super breeding program in order to find a single person who can see into the future? (I mean holy fuck you already break the whole space and past time thing wide open effectively making the memories of all Reverend Mortals immortal and somehow you got this notion that it takes a Y chromosome to break the time barrier?) (Paul by the way only needs to get a whiff of the pure stuff before he starts to warp his vision into the future.)

Meanwhile you have the spice. Everyone wants it because they are all addicted to the fucking stuff. Immortality is the goal of the emperor; the Spacing Guilds navigators practically breathe the stuff; the Bene Gesserit need not only it but the poison of the drowned worm in order to keep their hold on the collective.

The whole thing is a gamble of such high stakes that it almost comical when the fact is that the ability to see into the uncertainty of the future doesn’t mean jack squat in the cosmic scale of things. The Kwisatz Haderach is no Messiah; far from it.

RandomCasualty2 wrote:

Murtak wrote:I like the book because it is the only book I have read that conveys an atmosphere of intrigue, of plans within plans. As a bonus the world is consistent within itself - that is rare by itself.

Not really, I mean it always upset me that in one of the books (God Emperor I think), there's a massive time jump, of like 10,000 years or some shit... And yet the technology stays exactly the same. They're still using lasguns and shield belts and still haven't found a way to navigate without the spice. I mean seriously, a 10,000 year jump and there's no technical development at all. For a sci-fi novel, that's pretty damn inexcusable and just totally broke the series for me.

A God Emperor and an utter lack of technological development? Sounds like Warhammer 40K to me!

Tzor, come now, nobody should like the prequels more than the originals.

Dune is written in an incredibly pretty manner. Also, the overtones of feudalism and destiny are freaking great.

Dune wrote: Empires do not suffer emptiness of purpose at the time of their creation. It is when they have become established that aims are lost and replaced by vague rituals.

- Words of Muad’dib by Princess Irulan

I've started it 3 or 4 times, but can't get paseed the fiirst 100 pages. I did the same thing with LotR, and eventually I broke through the wall and finished (and enjoyed) that series, so I suspect that at some point the same thing will happen with Dune.

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Not really, I mean it always upset me that in one of the books (God Emperor I think), there's a massive time jump, of like 10,000 years or some shit... And yet the technology stays exactly the same. They're still using lasguns and shield belts and still haven't found a way to navigate without the spice. I mean seriously, a 10,000 year jump and there's no technical development at all. For a sci-fi novel, that's pretty damn inexcusable and just totally broke the series for me.

First of all, that's not even true. They were very busy developing the only technology that mattered: no-rooms and no-ships. I mean, when you have what amounts to an all-powerful, all-seeing emperor who doesn't want any technology developed for anyone except himself, you have to be pretty circumspect about working on the tech you need to break his omniscience.

Never mind that he was doing it himself, of course.


I stopped reading the prequels after I think the second one (?). Anyway, they're terrible and really shouldn't be factored in.

I'm pretty sure any attempts at a movie/miniseries are also going to just not be any good.

The sequels are also rough in places. Nowhere near as bad as the prequels, but I definitely got the feeling that Herbert signed a contract to write "more of those Dune books". Still, they have their moments.

I really liked the Dune Encyclopedia, but I only had the chance to look it over at a bookstore one time (I should have just bought the thing). It seemed to capture a lot of what was great about the original book.

The original book has a lot going for it. I'm with ubernoob that it's just written in a way that makes it fun to read, it conveys depth very efficiently. There's intrigue, as stated, and ecology, and politics, and religion, and technology, and people. It's just well put together.

Dune has a good setting, a good story, and is written in a manner that doesn't trigger my urge to kill. That simple combination puts it distressingly high on the list of quality fiction (most things limp by with only one or two of those), and even higher on the list of science-fantasy fiction.

I imagine the technological stagnation has a lot to do with the fact that they refuse to use computers for essentially anything due to their nasty past at nearly being utterly subjugated by their robot overlords. Imagine how fucking terrible it would have to be to do interstellar travel and shit with no computers other than drugged-up former humans. Tracking and logistics of planetary economies, shit. It's a marvel they can do anything at all with the self-imposed handicap of "OMG! No computorz!"

What advances are they going to have? They are at their limits of human achievement and refuse to go beyond that. They don't even have facebook! It would be hilarious to read Leto Atreides' facebook page or somesuch though.

Caedrus wrote:

Murtak wrote:I like the book because it is the only book I have read that conveys an atmosphere of intrigue, of plans within plans. As a bonus the world is consistent within itself - that is rare by itself.

Try reading the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series by George R. R. Martin. First one is "A Game of Thrones."

There's more intrigue than you'll know what to do with.

That series bored the hell out of me.

RandomCasualty2 wrote:

Murtak wrote:I like the book because it is the only book I have read that conveys an atmosphere of intrigue, of plans within plans. As a bonus the world is consistent within itself - that is rare by itself.

Not really, I mean it always upset me that in one of the books ...

I really like the original book, but the sequel was so bad I never read any of the later books. When talking about Dune, I am only talking about the original book. I don't know the rest of the series.

I've heard of the "Game of Thrones" before at least in name but when I heard it the person was telling me about an RPG system and setting.

Yeah, Dune is great for the socio-geo-political blah blah and all that, but I love it mostly just for the elegance of the writing. Frank Herbert is a master at communicating information, and it's often what is not said that is more significant than what is. There is a scene toward the end of one of the later books (Chapterhouse, maybe?) in which a major pivotal battle takes place, and it all happens "off-camera". Normally that would drive me nuts, but here it totally works. The economy with which the author divulges plot points really drives the story forward, and a single line or paragraph of dialogue can covey what would take most authors pages and pages of descriptive text.

Hell, I totally forget the source of this, but I remember reading once about an interview in which Herbert explained how long it took him to write Dune, and some of the techniques he tried out in writing it. Much of the dialogue in the first book started out as philosophical haikus, to which he added articles and punctuation to make it flow better conversationally. Is that sweet or what?

Murtak wrote:

RandomCasualty2 wrote:

Murtak wrote:I like the book because it is the only book I have read that conveys an atmosphere of intrigue, of plans within plans. As a bonus the world is consistent within itself - that is rare by itself.

Not really, I mean it always upset me that in one of the books ...

I really like the original book, but the sequel was so bad I never read any of the later books. When talking about Dune, I am only talking about the original book. I don't know the rest of the series.

I only read the first three books. Children of Dune was so boring that I didn't want to read the even longer fourth book.

'Dune: Messiah' and 'Children of Dune' were really boring.

God emperor, and the latter books were again interesting.