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Learning english grammar

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:01 pm
by The Vigilante
So, recently I've realized I have some troubles expressing myself in written english, especially with regards to verb tenses and other grammatical issues. I read a lot in english, watch a lot of english tv and have no problem speaking in the language. However, when it comes to written english, I don't have the same affinity with the language.

Do you guys have any websites that would help a non-native english speaker to understand verb tenses, usage and other grammar issues ?

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:50 pm
by Crissa
Bookshelf - list of grammar must-reads, unfortunately, they're all print, not online.

OWL at Perdue - Dunno how useful this is, but it's the closest I can find to an online grammar guide.

-Crissa

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:38 pm
by ubernoob
You should also note that people that are crazy and/or retarded may have troubles expressing themselves fluidly, so their writing could also be troublesome because you are having to use context clues to figure out what they were attempting to say. Not to say that there are any crazy and/or retarded people that speak english, of course.

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:22 pm
by Josh_Kablack
If you just need some reference websites, the key google search term is "ESL" for English as a Second Language.

And that turns up this site which may be of interest:

http://www.rong-chang.com/grammar.htm


***********************************



But if you want my lengthy rant:



Crissa list is good, but terribly bloated.

Elements of Style is the only actual must-read on it.

Eats, Shoots and Leaves is a fun read that busts the apostrophe myth wide open. Likewise, William Saffire's work on English (collections of On Language columns and fumblerules) is eminently readable - just don't mix it up with his political commentary.

You also want one general grammar reference guide. Personally I have A writers reference, third edition by Diana Hacker on my shelf, at least since somebody swiped my copy of Warriner's English Grammar and Composition. There are about a dozen more of these on Crissa's list. Pick one.

And then you want the style guide of whoever you are writing for. This is of paramount importance in the internet age and taught just about nowhere. In an English course the "style guide" will be a handout or website the professor gives you, but in any sort of professional writing there will be rules about what must be capitalized, what can be hyphenated, what can be abbreviated and how, what type of slang and profanity is acceptable, what length is required and allowed, what format to send files in, how formatting is applied etc.

For an example, here's the 11-page styleguide from a well-known RPG company:
White Wolf Style Guide and Writer’s Bible
Updated December 30, 2008
We are sick of receiving 75,000 words of improperly formatted, grammatically atrocious, randomly punctuated drivel, getting a one-week deadline to rip it apart, process it and 24 hours (at best) to proofread it, and then listening to incessant bitching when mistakes slip through. Do everyone a favor and at least read this before you use it for birdcage lining. The better you do your job, the better we can do ours.
P.S.: The above also applies to in-house writers. Especially in-house writers. You know who you are and we know where you live.
So here it is: the definitive White Wolf style guide and writer's bible. Use this list as a guide in your writing or editing. If there's still some confusion, get in touch with the appropriate line developer. Also, invest in copies of the Chicago Style Guide and Strunk & White – if it’s not covered here, it’s probably covered in one of those two books.
General Formatting Guidelines
Save all documents in Rich Text (.rtf) or Microsoft Word (.doc) format!
Keep everything flush left, do not center text and do not put it on right justification. Let it have that ragged right edge.
Do not indent paragraphs.
Leave at least a one-inch margin all around.
If you have Microsoft Word (either for Windows or Mac), we don’t use tags (<1>, <2>, <b>) anymore. We now have a Word document template that we use called “WoD-Template.dot”. Ignore the “Manuscript Formatting” appendix, and refer instead to the “WoD Template Styles Guide” document.
If you use another piece of word processing software that can’t use the template, reference the “Manuscript Formatting” appendix.
Formatting Text for Layout
When a manuscript is going to be laid out, the book's files need to be formatted in a specific manner.
Each chapter of the book must be in a separate file, as must each of the front cover text, spine text, frontace page text, contents, credits and back cover text.
When designing the credits page, list information as it will appear in the finished book, from the top of the left column to the bottom of the right (i.e., in order: credits, special thanks, dedications, word from White Wolf (if used) and copyright/disclaimer info).
Use only one [Return] between paragraphs. Do not separate paragraphs by two or more Returns. New headers and their subsequent text should also be separated from preceding text by only one [Return]. The code for the new header has a built-in instruction to create space between the preceding text and the new header.
When new paragraphs begin, don't indent them or use [Tab]. Production has its own systems for indicating indentations at the beginnings of paragraphs.
You can use [Tab] when designing a chart, to separate columns. However, do not separate columns by more than a singe [Tab], even if the text on the screen does not line up in neat columns. Production will know that tabs between lines are indications of separate columns, and will line them up.
Example: The following chart should be formatted like this:
<b>Die Roll[Tab]Result[Tab]Damage
<n>1-2[Tab]Head Blow[Tab]5
3-4[Tab]Chest Blow[Tab]3
5-6[Tab]Lower Body[Tab]2
Formatting Character Profiles
When you're writing for us, ask your developer for the characters you design. If you don't follow these formats, the developers will have to revise your characters, and that makes them very unhappy. Note that there are variations between character profiles from game line to game line, so be careful.
Tip Department
It's a pain in the ass to retype profiles for every new character. It's best to keep a blank profile (one without actual scores on it) in a file of its own. Every time you need to design a new character, copy the template from its file and paste the template into the place in the file you're working in. You can now type the character's scores directly into the new, blank character profile.
Spaces After Punctuation Marks
Because we want to fit as much text in a book as possible, we do not use two spaces after a period or other punctuation mark ([Period][Space][Space]Blah, blah, blah). We only use one space ([Period][Space]Blah, blah, blah).
Style, Grammar, Punctuation and Other Trivia
The Great Commandments
The First Commandment: Thou shalt spellcheck thy document. We know you have a spellchecker, so please, please use it. Don't embarrass yourself and us, your diligent editors, by ignoring this step.
The Second Commandment: Thou shalt use active voice. ("He killed the Exalt," not "The Exalt was killed by him.") Active voice rules. Active voice excites, titillates and arouses. Active voice grips the reader. Active voice is alternative. It's cutting-edge. It wears flannel and bondage gear at the same time. It has more tattoos than the Hell's Angels and the Yakuza combined. Use it.
The Third Commandment: Thou shalt write in the present tense as much as possible. Rather than write "If none of the characters can, Dave will break down the door," write "If none of the characters can, Dave breaks down the door." The former implies delayed action and distances the reader from events. The latter implies immediate action and involves the reader in the event being described. The first writing style is reactive, the second is active. Also, do not change tenses or persons in the middle of a paragraph or section, and try to be as consistent as possible.
The Fourth Commandment: Thou shalt not pad thy word count. We’re not paying you to restate the same sentence three different ways; we’re paying you for idea density. Those tricks you figured out in college for padding out term papers when you couldn’t think of anything else to say? We know them too, and we get cranky when we have to write new material on short notice to replace the word count holes left by overwriting. Eliminate redundancies by thinking about what the reader still wants to know about concerning that topic, and write about that instead of telling us the same thing over again.
General Capitalization Guidelines
Try to avoid unnecessary capitalization. Not only does it take up valuable page space, it looks so goddamn ugly! Unless capitalization is grammatically necessary or essential for clarity, DON'T!
Capitalize the first letters of terms relating to game Traits: i.e., Attributes (Strength, Perception), Abilities (Stealth, Occult), Backgrounds (Contacts, Retainers), Disciplines, etc.
Never capitalize FULL WORDS. Bold or italicize them for emphasis instead.
Don't capitalize species names (i.e., faerie, changeling, centaur, pixie, etc.). The one exception to this is Promethean, which is considered more exotic than other species. Do, however, capitalize “splat terms” and species nicknames (e.g., Blood Talons, the Lost, Daeva, Acanthus and Darkling).
Don't capitalize titles used in a general sense (i.e., the queen, the prince), but do capitalize specific uses (i.e., Queen Mab, Prince Oberon).
The same guideline applies to places (i.e., "the toadstool ring," "the court"; but "the Toadstool Ring of Samothrace," "the Miami Court").
Ditto with group and organization names (i.e., "the clan," but "Clan Ventrue").
Don't capitalize words simply because they're "weird" unless this is necessary to distinguish the word from an English usage (i.e., a "Trod" faerie realm should be capitalized to avoid confusion with the past tense of the verb "tread").
To reflect our esteem for the position of Storyteller, this title is always capitalized.
Don't capitalize "game-specific," non-Trait-related words that mean essentially the same thing as their English equivalents. For example, in Vampire, "frenzy" and "progeny" don't need to be capitalized. There is no essential difference between a vampire's frenzy and that of, say, a shark or PCP addict.
Other Not Quite So Histrionic, But Equally Important Stuff
Abbreviations: When using abbreviations, put periods between each letter (e.g., A.D., not AD; a.k.a., not aka). An exception to this rule is when referring to World War I and World War II. As abbreviations, they should read WWI and WWII. When in doubt, check a dictionary.
Affect, effect: Affect is a verb; effect is a noun.
His spell was designed to affect all vampires.
The spell had a long-lasting effect.
The exception is when effect is used to mean "enact, cause to be."
He sought to effect a cure for the spell's victims.
American English: Use standard American English. Hence: color, gray, toward, backward, afterward, empathize; not colour, grey, towards, backwards, afterwards, empathise. The one exception to this rule is theatre, particularly in reference to Mind's Eye Theatre.
Between, among: Between = 2; among > 2.
Justin and Oscar haven't got an ounce of alcohol between them.
The cowering, mutilated victims were distributed among the seven ravenous vampires.
The exception is when making a comparison or contrast between (not among) three or more things - e.g., "What is the essential difference between (not among) vampires, werewolves and mages?" or "He traveled between Boston, New York and Chicago."
Centered on vs. centered around: Use “rotate around” or “centered on,” but never “centered around.”
Chronology: When referring to a specific year, A.D. precedes the number; B.C follows it. Thus, A.D. 1776, but 300 B.C. When talking about eras (i.e. centuries), B.C. and A.D. follow the century. For example: America was born in the nineteenth century A.D.; the Egyptian pharaohs thrived in the sixth century B.C.
Colons: When a clause following a colon is independent, it is capitalized. Otherwise it is not.
The prince's decree was as follows: The Carthian will be staked and left to roast in the sun.
He was Unaligned: one of the outcasts.
The Consilium needs the following ingredients: eye of newt, virgins' blood, and bones from a baby's skull.
Conjunctions: Use a comma before a conjunction (and, but, for, or, nor, yet) provided the conjunction joins two independent clauses that could otherwise be complete sentences.
David will not be here at ten but will arrive at eleven. (independent and dependent)
David will be not be here at ten, but he will arrive at eleven. (independent and independent)
Compound adjectives (and hyphens): Compound adjectives that fall before the modified noun should be hyphenated, except very or those that end in -est or -ly.
It is an out-of-print book.
The book is out of print.
She received well-deserved praise.
The praise was well deserved.
The vampire gleefully exsanguinated the five-year-old girl.
That was the best loved book of them all.
Did they sign a two- or three-year lease?
Discrete, discreet: Discrete means to constitute a separate part (“These are discrete manuscripts – don’t staple them together.”). Discreet means to be subtle (“Your phasing in this particular manuscript is discreet.”). Don’t mix them up – it’s driving our editors crazy.
Earth versus earth: "Earth" is capitalized in reference to the planet (e.g., "They firmly believe they are the agents of God on Earth."). The word is not capitalized in reference to soil (e.g. "Gangrel characters can escape the sun by melding into the earth.")
Ellipses: When ending a complete sentence with ellipses, use a period and follow it with the three-dot construction, for a total of four dots. When ending a question or exclamation with ellipses, use the three-dot key and follow with the appropriate punctuation mark. With fragments, simply use the three-dot construction.
This is the end of the world….
You don’t mean…?
Is there…
Do not overuse ellipses. They are lazy shortcuts for bad suspense novels and cheap comedy…or are they? Find out on the next page…I think.
Emdashes vs. hyphens: We use emdashes (—), not two hyphens (--). We use a single space on either side of the emdash. Don’t overuse these as well – they should not take the place of periods or semicolons unless absolutely necessary. Too many emdash phrases are jarring – but you knew that already, right?
Fewer, less: Fewer refers to units; less, to quantity.
There were fewer ghouls than Kindred in the hunting party.
The Gangrel levy fewer restrictions on their progeny than the Ventrue do.
They had traveled less than three miles and had consumed less than half of their rations.
Because I had drunk less beer than she had, fewer cans lay at my feet.
Gender-bending fun: Pay attention to the way we handle sexist language in our products. Use "humanity" or "humankind" or "people" instead of "mankind." Alternate genders when using third-person singular pronouns in nonspecific manners.
Hyphens (prefixes and suffixes): In general, do not hyphenate unless the root is a capitalized word (sub-Saharan, un-Awakened) or unless the hyphen is needed to avoid confusion (re-create, re-form). So: subheading, coworker, cooperate, nonentity, semipermeable, reexamine, antimatter, batlike, preheat, postmortem, unnecessary, antidisestablishmentarianism. Exceptions are the prefixes ex- and self-, and the suffix -elect. Also excepted are words with two or more identical consecutive letters; i.e., gill-like, not gilllike, or ghoul-like, not ghoullike.
Roleplay, roleplayer and roleplaying are not hyphenated.
If you're unsure whether a word is hyphenated or not, check a dictionary.
Lie, lay: Sentient beings lie down, but lay objects on (presumably) flat surfaces. This may seem elementary, but it's amazing how many manuscripts are riddled with lie/lay errors.
Miscellaneous, Jeopardy-question kinda stuff: T-shirt and TV, not t-shirt and tv.
We find the verb "inflict" preferable to "do" when referring to injury.
Adrenaline is the endocrinal chemical itself; Adrenalin is a synthetic equivalent.
Blond, not blonde, is the adjective form; i.e., "He had blond hair," but "She is a natural blonde."
Confidante is the female (and only the female) form of confidant.
Discrete denotes separate things; discreet described prudent or stealthy people.
Heroine is the feminine form of hero. Heroin is the narcotic.
Neither, nor: Nor is the proper conjunction in a construction with neither.
Neither the Seer nor (not or) the Scelesti knew the proper rote to banish the tentacled eldritch blasphemy.
Numbers: Write out the numerals from one to nine, unless used in reference to a game statistic (Strength of 3). Use numerals for 10 and up. In fiction, however, most numbers are written out, except for certain expressions used in reference to time. (She is seven years old. It is 3:12 A.M. We'll meet at nine o'clock.) When a number starts a sentence, write the word out (e.g., Ten minutes had passed since Dave left.) And, numbers that contain more than five zeroes should be written out (e.g., seven million vs. 7,000,000, but 10,000 rather than 10 thousand or ten thousand).
Example: Puck, with a Dexterity rating of 5 and a Melee rating of 3, rolls eight dice when attacking. He must score three successes on a Dexterity + Melee roll to pierce the dragon's hide. Puck's magic blade inflicts a phenomenal 12 dice of damage.
Additional note: When describing modifiers to difficulty numbers or the like (+2, -16, whatever), don’t put a space between the plus or minus and the numeral (and make sure you use a minus sign, not a hyphen). It works better that way. Really.
Off of, off: Do not use off of; off is sufficient. The same rule holds for outside, inside, etc.
Only: Note that “only” modifies whatever word it's next to, thus lending variant meanings with variant syntax. Consider I only killed the Banisher (false modesty) versus I killed only the Banisher (precision in body counts) versus Only I killed the Banisher (glory hogging).
Page XX: Inserting the page numbers is a layout thing, so don’t worry about unless it’s referring to a book you have on hand to refer to (such as a core rulebook). Separately, if the page reference is to something a couple of paragraphs above or below, don’t use p. xx – use “see above” or “see below” instead.
Parenthetical statements: We’ve already discussed this in the “ellipses” and “emdashes” sections, but it must be emphasized: Do not overuse parenthetical statements. They are dodgy and self-indulgent (and not to be trusted). Just come right out and say it – no need to be coy and hide behind slippery punctuation.
Player versus Character: A player is a person who sits at the gaming table, rolls dice and roleplays. A character is a person who exists in the game and story. Be aware of the difference when you're writing. "Players" don't walk into medieval taverns, drink the blood of their victims, warp reality or risk traveling in the Tempest; "characters" do. We don't want to read sentences like, "The prince's agents come after the players when they break the Masquerade," just as we don't want to read, "The characters can make rolls to spot the ambush before it's sprung." If you can't properly differentiate between the terms, we'll cut your freelance paycheck in your favorite character's name.
Plurals (and apostrophes): Do not use an apostrophe to form most plurals: UFOs, not UFO's, CDs, not CD's. 1920s (or '20s), not 1920's nor 20's). Exceptions include do's (to avoid confusion with the Spanish "dos"), P's & Q's, "dot your I's and cross your T's."
Possessives: When a noun ends in “s” and you need to make it possessive, only add an apostrophe (Jesus’, not Jesus’s).
This is Mr. Jones’ last ride.
You! Go get Carlos’ gun before the cops get here!
Pronouns (agreement): Pronouns following a linking verb take the subjective case; i.e., It is we who shall
Pronouns (and modifiers): Who and whom are used to signify sentient beings, while that and which are used to denote objects. “The werewolf who,” not “the werewolf that.”
Pronouns (singular vs. plural): A singular antecedent takes a singular pronoun. Pick a gender (or it), but don't use they, their, etc.
If your opponent is damaged by this attack, he (not they) may play combat cards.
If affected by this rite, the victim takes a one-die penalty to all of her (not their) actions.
Stop and think about this rule and your writing style; most people break it and don't even realize it.
Quotations/epigrams (attributions): Poem titles go in quotes. A poem title is only italicized if it's long enough to be released by itself. Ship names, movies, books and TV shows are also italicized (although the name of a particular episode would be in quotes; e.g., Star Trek, "Mudd's Women"), while song titles are in quotes. We do not use act and scene references for plays. The name of the author or group always precedes the title of the work. If there is no known source for the quote, use Anonymous, and a description (folk song, Latin saying, etc.) if possible. When quoting things in a foreign language, provide a translation in parentheses. Reference to White Wolf books are bolded, not italicized (see “Titles (presentation),” below).
Quotations/epigrams (physical presentation in text): In general, we italicize quotes and epigrams and do not use quotation marks except when dealing with dialogue.
Quotation marks (and other punctuation): Commas and periods always go inside quotation marks. Semicolons and colons always fall outside, and question marks and exclamation points can do either depending on the specific example.
Serial commas: We omit the final comma in a series, unless doing so would be awkward or clumsy. Strunk & White will be upset, but I think they’ll get over it.
Semicolons in a series: Use semicolons to separate items in a series if the items themselves contain commas.
Sidebars: Don’t overuse sidebars. If you have lengthy sidebars (over a page in length) or multiple sidebars within a few pages, ask yourself if that material shouldn’t be in a separate section in the main text instead.
Special Powers (lists): When giving a list of Disciplines, Abilities, Backgrounds or similar terms, alphabetize them. Pretty please.
Subject/verb agreement (collective nouns): Pay attention to agreement, especially when using names of tribes, bloodlines, etc. Generally, we use the singular with collective nouns:
VII plans (not plan) an attack tomorrow.
The Consilium is (not are) unprepared.
The tribe is (not are) traveling to Peoria.
A verb used after an or construction follows the form of the nearer subject.
Neither she nor I have (not has) the fetish.
Either the detective or the police are coming (not is coming) at midnight.
When using a construction that indicates a group of something (a gaggle of geese, flock of starlings, kibble of cats, pack of wolves), make sure the verb agrees with the group indicator (gaggle, kibble, flock, pack).
A coterie of vampires may have strict rules of membership and they may not allow members to leave.
"A coterie of vampires" is a singular subject — there's only one coterie in question — so "they" is inappropriate. The sentence should read:
A coterie of vampires may have strict rules of membership and it may not allow members to leave.
Please, please, please pay attention to this one, people. A manuscript chock-full of subject/verb discrepancies ("The Brood has the prince in their clutches.") takes a long time to correct. We don't have a long time.
Subjunctive mood: The subjunctive mood is used in verb constructions involving a wishful/hopeful state or a contrary-to-fact condition.
I wish I were (not was) going.
If water were wine, I'd go swimming a lot more often.
If the ancient vampire were kind and gentle, the world would be a better place.
However:
If she was (not were) really sick, why did she attend the show? (She might actually be sick.)
Tenant, tenet: A tenant is someone who is renting a room/house/apartment. A tenet is a belief.
That/which: That is primarily used for restrictive clauses (clauses necessary to preserve the sense of the sentence); which is used for nonrestrictive. Which clauses are generally set off by commas.
Attack the Pure that singed my fur.
The Invictus is the covenant that masterminded the prince's fall.
Uranium-238, which is a powerful isotope, was found in the basement.
That/which vs. who/whom: See "Pronouns (and modifiers)." Please.
Time: Use numerals, along with P.M. or A.M. if necessary; i.e., 5:23 P.M., but five o'clock.
Time/place modifiers: Make sure you use proper adverbs when referring to times and places. For example, one does not write "This is an era where," but "This is an era when." One does not write "This is a story where," but "This is a story in which." On a related note: The word "whence" is not preceded by "from;" it stands on its own. "Get back to the foul abyss whence [not from whence] you came!"
Titles (prepositions and articles): Most articles and prepositions are not capitalized in titles, unless they are over four letters long (so between and among would be capitalized). Linking verbs such as is and be are capitalized.
The War of the Worlds not The War Of The Worlds
Titles (presentation): Our game titles are always bolded, and the article the after the colon is capitalized:
World of Darkness Rulebook, Vampire: The Requiem, Werewolf: The Forsaken, Mage: The Awakening, Promethean: The Created, Changeling: The Lost, Exalted, Scion: Hero, Scion: Demigod, Scion: God and Mind’s Eye Theatre.
Try to (vs. try and): Please do not use the expression “try and” in your writing; it is wrong. “Try to” is correct.
The mage will try to (not try and) conjure a demon.
Turns versus rounds: The Storyteller system is based on game turns, not rounds. If you write about rounds in your manuscript, you're working on a submission for Wizards of the Coast. This isn't Wizards of the Coast.
Who/whom (case): “Whom” is the objective form of “who” and should be used in all situations where the antecedent of the pronoun in question is acted upon by another.
The Gangrel with whom I spoke told me that Carthians raided the armory.
She is the princess whom the magician needed for his spell.
Easy way to check: If it is possible to rearrange the sentence so that the object in question becomes him or her, use whom.
The magician needed her for his spell.
Appendix: Manuscript Formatting (If You Don’t Have Word)
Headers
There are four sizes and styles of headers (titles) used in our books. The largest is used to indicate the beginnings of chapters. The others are used to begin sections and subsections. The header labels are, in decreasing order of font size:
 <chapter>
<1>
<2>
<3>
These symbols should immediately precede the title in question. (e.g., "<chapter>Forsaken in Australia" "<1>Down Under" "<2>Local Habits" "<3>Sheep Sheering"
If a header smaller than <3> is required, used bold text (<b>) - see below.
On the line following a header, where normal text begins, immediately precede that text with the normal symbol (<n>). This designates the change from header font to text font.
Example:
<b>Head Hunters in Australia
<n>Blah, blah, blah
Font Styles
If you want to indicate text in whole paragraphs as bold, italicized or underlined, immediately precede the paragraphs with <b> for bold, <i> for italics and <u> for underline.
Immediately before text in a subsequent paragraph that should be in normal font, place the code for normal text (<n>) to revert from stylized to normal text.
Example:
<b>Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
<n>Blah, blah, blah
In-house Instructions
When you want text placed within a box in the finished book, or have a special instruction to give to the typesetter when laying out portions of your book, [PUT THE INSTRUCTIONS IN ALL-CAPS AND WITHIN SQUARE BRACKETS, LIKE THIS]. Also, follow the specified text with a similar line such as [CLOSE BOX], which tells the typesetter when to undo the special formatting that you have requested.
Converting from Manual Style to Word Template
If you have a lengthy document that you need to convert to the Word template styles, there’s a fairly simple method to do so:
1.Save a copy of your original file, in case you make a mistake!
2.Select all of the text in the document, and convert it to the “n” style.
3.Open Find/Replace in the menu.
4.In “Find,” put one of the tags to replace (such as <1>).
5.In “Replace,” leave completely blank.
6.Click on “Format,” and select “Style…”
7.Choose the appropriate style (in this case, “1”).
8.Click “Replace All.”
9.When done, you can find/replace for “<n>” without the formatting information to delete them all.
That should remove the tags and convert the text to the appropriate style.
And that's from a small company known to have really shitty editing. Major newspapers have lengthier documents.

But the important thing to realize is that between any two potential employers, large parts of any such styleguide are going to differ in some key places.

****

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:14 pm
by The Vigilante
Wow, thanks a lot everyone, I'll try to find those in bookstores next time I go downtown ! Should be really helpful.

Now let me refine my request a little bit. My main gripe with english is that I always feel like my writing reads like it's straight out of an instructions booklet. It's just bland, and every time I try to spice it up a little bit I find I'm entangled in verb tenses and all sorts of grammatical problem and it just feels like I've traded blandness for clumsiness. Any advice regarding this specific problem ? My feeling is that by familiarizing myself with the basics I'll just grow into a richer style, but I'm wondering if anyone had the same problem or had a suggestion regarding this.

Thanks again folks !

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:08 am
by Crissa
I second Josh's critique.

-Crissa

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:53 am
by Username17
The hardest truth for non-native English speakers to grasp is that by the standards of, for example, Slavic languages, English is not a language! It's like 35 languages. Every one of them as distinct from one another as Polish is from Slovakian. When you ask about the differences, most people will tell you something patronizing about how in Britain they spell honor, color, and humor with an extra U. Or maybe they remember that those guys call eggplants "aubergines" or that they call the letter Z "zed." But those differences in spelling and word choice are the tiniest tip of the iceberg as far as linguistic differences between dialects of English. Basic grammatical structures just aren't even the same from one place to another. Apu from The Simpsons doesn't speak "wrong," there are about four hundred million people who talk like that, more than there are people who live in the United States and the United Kingdom combined.

Here's my favorite example: let's say that you have a black man from Mississippi. He makes the following statement:

"I've been a postman."

Now, if he says it outloud, the "'ve" portion is almost completely silent and there is extra emphasis on the word "been" but in any case none of that appears in print. What it means is that he is currently a postman and started being a postman a long time ago and was a postman continuously from when he started and today. Now, here's where it get's exciting, because we have a man from Massachusetts who makes the following statement:

"I've been a postman."

If he says it outloud, the first will have more like an extended a sound like "aaahv" and he emphasis will be on the syllable "post" but again none of that appears in print. What it means is that at some poit in the past he started and finished being a postman and isn't one now.

And this sort of dialectical variation that English speakers deal with every single time we talk to one another or communicate in print. And we get by through hubris and repetition and rephrasing. And it works fine. So when I hear Czechs say they can't talk to Poles or Croats say that they can't talk to Macedonians, I laugh in their fucking face. They could, they just don't want to. Because they have a nationalistic myth that their language is a special snowflake and the moment they hear a shibboleth they just give up. While in English-land we have an imperialistic myth instead that says that we should all be able to talk to each other - so we do and therefore we can.

-Username17

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:09 pm
by Crissa
Yeah. English speakers are constantly being bombarded with regional and technological and cultural changes to their language so not a day goes by where they aren't stumped by something someone said to them.

And somehow we forget to mention that to other people, that we're always learning and changing the language we're speaking, in horrible and obtuse ways.

So you will never 'get' everything said to you. English speakers assume they won't understand everything said to them while simultaneously assuming that everything they say will be understood.

-Crissa

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:39 pm
by Maj
Vigilante,

Something you might try might be chatting online with someone who will help you with your English. Sort of like an online pen-pal.

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:14 pm
by ubernoob
Maj wrote:Vigilante,

Something you might try might be chatting online with someone who will help you with your English. Sort of like an online pen-pal.
Yes, online chat clients with proficient speakers will really help you at least get written english down. If you want, I'd be happy to chat with you (I already have like four denners on my IM clients and spend much of my time online chatting as it is).

For reference: I speak the dialect common in urban areas (but not the 'urban' dialect common among the hip hop culture, although I can understand it fairly well).

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:13 pm
by Crissa
Oh, yeah, I chat with lots of foreign-speaking folks! Even the most fluent ones are always saying, 'I have to look up words you use!' Of course, so does my little sister... In college...

They seem to want to learn english more than I can convince them to try to help me speak their language, tho.

-Crissa

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:25 pm
by Josh_Kablack
Of additional note here is the Oxford English Dictionary - which is the most authoritative source on what is and isn't English. (But far from the only source and not truly official.)

Unlike French, where L'Académie française has a group of 40 "Immortals" who decide what is French and what is merely a foreign word that Francophones sometimes use. English is a hyper-democratic, hyper-assimilative language with nobody at all in charge.

Because the Victorians had already conquered the world and had a crazy amount of hubris, a group of them decided to formalize this notion and record every distinct usage of every word ever in a printed English book. They started in 1861, By 1884 they were halfway through the letter A, but with the help of a lunatic they got the first edition shipped by 1928, and the first errata only took them 5 years. The second edition went online in 1989.

But as interesting as the academic history of the work is, it's far more critical to understand the philosophy. In the most authoritative source for English, every word that an English-language writer has ever had published is English Thus when someone writing in English used French phrases like deja-vu, savior-faire, enfant terrible - they then became English phrases; when an English writer appropriated the Italian musical terms fortissimo, crescendo, sotto voce - they became English words, when an English writer wrote with the Japanese words kamikaze, dojo, and geisha - they became English words. Got it?

And that's just the start. Many of those words then took on additional or changed meanings in Englsih. Today a native English speaker might describe a middle-aged entrepreneur as an "enfant terrible", use "crescendo" to refer to a part of a novel and then order a "Kamikaze" at the local bar.

And this continues to happen all the time. With the internet age and increased global communications, the contact between English and other language has increased dramatically, so the borrowing of words and phrases has also increased dramatically.


***

on an unrelated note
that we should all be able to talk to each other - so we do and therefore we can.
Which is why the American tourists always just repeat things slower and louder, we just assume that eventually anyone will be able to understand.

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:59 pm
by tzor
It is quite ironic that it was the English who were the last ones to realize that they needed a definition for their language. Those crazy American’s across the pond had been doing it since Webster first published his dictionary in 1806, which became the definitive source for proper American English. (Note that Webster’s first dictionary would have had the long “s” – ƒ – as that did not go out of fashion in America until 1820)

But the problems with the English language do not just come from the Victorian era. The problem originally came in 1022 when a dispute over the successor to Edward the Confessor resulted in the invasion of the French Language to the nation. This resulted in massive influx of English (and Latin) into the Germanic English Language. (The monarchs of England continued to speak in French for several generations after the death of Harold II.)

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:15 pm
by Josh_Kablack
Tzor is right, but his date is slightly off.

As a consequence of the Norman Conquest of England - centering on the Battle of hastings in 1066 AD, a bunch of French words and cognates (such as "cognate" itself) became English. As French is romance language (ie a form of Latin corrupted by the isolation of the Dark Ages) this is where most (but not all) of the latin influence entered English,

But as post-conquest French was now the language of the nobility of England, while the old english/germanic/saxon was the language of the conquered peasants, we ended up with the contemporary sensibility where excrement and fornication are acceptable words and their saxon-root equivalents are vulgarities. So the next time some fucking shithead gives you grief about your foul mouth, remember that they are just toeing the line for the medieval cheese-eating surrender monkeys and hold your ground.

Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:34 pm
by Guyr Adamantine
Josh_Kashblack wrote:So the next time some fucking shithead gives you grief about your foul mouth, remember that they are just toeing the line for the medieval cheese-eating surrender monkeys and hold your ground.
I protest! I sure as hell don't eat cheese!

Not often, anyway.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:11 pm
by CatharzGodfoot
Sorry, Canadians don't count even if they speak what they claim to be French :-P

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:12 am
by Maj
The more I learn about English, the more I appreciate its spongitude. If you're ever feeling that need to express a concept that hasn't been fully conceptualized (that you know of), you just find something somewhere and toss it in. Yeah, it makes learning it more difficult - which sucks for both English speaking natives and those learning it as a second language - but it makes the language current, apropos, and fun once you get the hang of it.

;)

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:13 am
by tzor
Hey, if it's good enough for Shakespeare, it's good enough for me.

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:40 am
by erik
Ironically it isn't good enough for Shakespeare since he made up many words and his spelling of many words that were real at the time are entirely different than how today's are spelled. There were not any standard conventions for spelling so a lot of it would look like gibberish as things were written as they sounded rather than per any rules. His writings as read today have been cleaned up and made readable by editors over time such that they conform to our rules of proper spelling.

If Shakespeare were a poster on this board and typed as he spelled, it would probably give me a headache trying to read his posts. In fact if you tried to talk to someone who spoke English of the 1500-1600's, you'd probably have a hell of a time understanding them orally as well.

It's fair to say that whatever was good enough for Shakespeare is incredibly different than what we use today.

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:40 pm
by tzor
My point was in the making up of words as the need required, a situation that continues to this day. (texting, sexting ... etc) A frozen languge is a dead language, spoken only by dead people in a deadpan tone. Requem in aeternam.

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:24 pm
by CatharzGodfoot
tzor wrote:My point was in the making up of words as the need required, a situation that continues to this day. (texting, sexting ... etc) A frozen languge is a dead language, spoken only by dead people in a deadpan tone. Requem in aeternam.
Indeed; in pace requiescat.

Hmm. I wonder if that qualifies as English.

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:52 pm
by Lago PARANOIA
What happened in the late 17th/18th century that made English much more intuitive to the modern reader? It seems like there was a fifty-year timespan and then English got much more modern. Like almost anyone can read the Farmer's Almanac, no problem, but... it's kind of hard to explain. Anyone understand what I'm getting at?

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:12 pm
by Maj
I am going to take an educated guess and say that as printing presses and such were beginning to really take off, and more and more people were becoming literate, the ability to send an understandable, written message to someone hundreds of miles away became very important. As people communicate over longer distances and language becomes less "local," spelling and meaning are solidified.

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:39 pm
by Username17
Maj wrote:I am going to take an educated guess and say that as printing presses and such were beginning to really take off, and more and more people were becoming literate, the ability to send an understandable, written message to someone hundreds of miles away became very important. As people communicate over longer distances and language becomes less "local," spelling and meaning are solidified.
I'm going to dispute that. The King James Bible came out in 1611, and Shakespeare wrote right up until 1616. Printing was totally a thing established well before then. And yet, people were still speaking Early Modern English until the mid-seventeenth century.

English is not Italian or German. It did not coalesce around the printed word.

-Username17

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:24 am
by Maj
<shrug>

According to Wikipedia: Modern English:
Early Modern English lacked uniformity in spelling, but Samuel Johnson's dictionary, published in 1755 in England, was influential in establishing a standard form of spelling. Noah Webster did the same in America, publishing his dictionary in 1828; see American and British English spelling differences.

Public education increased literacy, and more people had access to books (and therefore to a standard language) with the spread of public libraries in the 19th century.
So, hooray dictionaries, literacy, and books.