The Gaming Den

Okay, the Elite Array sucks. If you're playing an MAD class, you're screwed.

Likewise, a buddy has what he calls the Champion Array (18 16 14 12 10 8) and while it's friendlier to MAD, it still scales down pretty hard. Also, it irks me to have to put an 8 in a stat when that doesn't fit the character concept.

Does anyone have something decent they regularly? I think Koumei came up with a couple of arrays for something. Can't remember what or where they are, though.

I'm all for 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 myself.

These days I mostly let everyone roll a statline and then let anyone use any of the statlines that any of the players rolled. It's fair, it outperforms the elite array or point buy, and it still looks like an organic pile of numbers because that is exactly what it is.

-Username17

I use point buys (of various shapes and sizes); that seems like the most sensible alternative.

Point buy usually.

32 point buy. Lets the MAD characters get something decent, and anything over 25 doesn't power up SAD characters anyways.

What I don't understand about the elite array is the damn odd numbers. There's no benefit to having a 15 rather than a 14; it's just a holdover from previous editions when each stat point mattered.

I've been thinking of doing something like Frank's method, but I'd use a rolling method that wouldn't generate odd numbers.

I hate odd numbers.

NineInchNall wrote: I've been thinking of doing something like Frank's method, but I'd use a rolling method that wouldn't generate odd numbers.

Would you change the "+1 to stat every four levels" rule, then?

The elite array works just fine--it's the classes with too much MAD that suck

Compare an elite array wizard with an elite array paladin:
Int 15, Con 14, Dex 13, Wis 12, Str 10, Cha 8 vs. Str 15, Con 14, Cha 13, Wis 12, Dex 10, Int 8.

Then compare them using a 25 point-buy:
Int 17, Con 16, Dex 10, Wis 8, Str 8, Cha 8 vs. Str 14, Con 14, Cha 14, Wis 14, Dex 9, Int 8.

Wizard gains a point of modifier in each of her most important attributes with the point buy. The paladin gains a point of modifier in two of her (less prioritized) 'prime requisites'. The wizard wins out at least as much with the point buy. In both cases the paladin is really going to want to invest is a belt of magnificence.

The reason for an odd highest attribute? Planning. So that at level 20 (if you ever make it there), you can have a 20.

hogarth wrote:

NineInchNall wrote: I've been thinking of doing something like Frank's method, but I'd use a rolling method that wouldn't generate odd numbers.

Would you change the "+1 to stat every four levels" rule, then?

Drop ability scores and stat wishing/tomes/manuals, and you'd actually even out the game's scaling math a bit.

It was very clear from everyone at the table that we liked high starting statistics, so we cut the crap and do 12 + 1d6 for each attribute.

I encourage my PCs to take 14 in everything. This generally means that I offer 30 point buy OR that. But I'd like to do the "roll, but everyone can choose among all the statblocks rolled" option at some point. Saying that the PCs have 14 in everything is a big timesaver, and my games are generally easy enough that they don't need the extra 10% of the RNG. The only downside to me is that I miss unusual stat arrays.

Roy wrote:32 point buy. Lets the MAD characters get something decent, and anything over 25 doesn't power up SAD characters anyways.

This is actually why I hate point buy and do not use it.

-Username17

CatharzGodfoot wrote:The reason for an odd highest attribute? Planning. So that at level 20 (if you ever make it there), you can have a 20.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

You get a +5 from Tomes or Wishes. You get +5 from levels.

That means if you were actually planning for level 20, you'd start with an even score.

Your character is just shittier in every way at level 20 than a character with a 16.

FrankTrollman wrote:

Roy wrote:32 point buy. Lets the MAD characters get something decent, and anything over 25 doesn't power up SAD characters anyways.

This is actually why I hate point buy and do not use it.

-Username17

Whatever. I have no doubt that the difference between your dice-spamming method and a very large point buy is vanishingly small (unless you're making each player roll a straight 3d6 x6, in which case you're a boob).

FrankTrollman wrote:These days I mostly let everyone roll a statline and then let anyone use any of the statlines that any of the players rolled. It's fair, it outperforms the elite array or point buy, and it still looks like an organic pile of numbers because that is exactly what it is.

-Username17

This is what I do as well. Rolling can be fun, but I really hate the idea of two guys rolling with one guy getting the top end of the curve and the other guy getting the bottom.

FrankTrollman wrote:These days I mostly let everyone roll a statline and then let anyone use any of the statlines that any of the players rolled. It's fair, it outperforms the elite array or point buy, and it still looks like an organic pile of numbers because that is exactly what it is.

-Username17

That's mathematically cool, but I cannot fathom how the logistics could possibly work within my current group. It breaks if everyone can't be there at chargen at the same time, it wastes more people's limited session time waiting, it results in an even longer queue for the newbs to use the thrice-damned chargen software, and the guy who joins mid campaign is either hosed or resented.

The HUGE advantage of array or point buy methods is that each player can make their character in advance without needing to take up session time and the issue of mistrust between group members is reduced.

That said, the 3.x standard point buys were ass - after I realized that none of the designers had actually done the math to compare the actually described rolling method to point buy, I always ran with 32 point buy or equivalent alternative.

hogarth wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:

Roy wrote:32 point buy. Lets the MAD characters get something decent, and anything over 25 doesn't power up SAD characters anyways.

This is actually why I hate point buy and do not use it.

-Username17

Whatever. I have no doubt that the difference between your dice-spamming method and a very large point buy is vanishingly small (unless you're making each player roll a straight 3d6 x6, in which case you're a boob).

Well, you're wrong. Which should be properly humbling for you, because you were just "sure" about something and nonetheless wrong. Here, I'll generate a set:

Player 1's Set	Player 2's Set	Player 3's Set	Player 4's Set
14	514	17	13
14	1414	11	11
6	1415	16	14
9	611	14	14
12	1110	10	12
15	1215	13	12

There. Everyone is going to take the throws from Player 3, because they are a lot better than the other ones, and they would "cost" a lot under any point buy scheme. But they are also an organic set, which means that they have genuine features like that spare 13 that can barely qualify you for feats and shit. And most importantly of all, while they cost 39 fucking points, there's still no 18 in there. And that would never ever happen on 39 point-buy.

So... no. It's not interchangeable at all. And all the differences are good. Point buy can fuck itself all the way off. In the name of fairness they just made a system that overpowers wizards and forces everyone else to suck ass.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote: There. Everyone is going to take the throws from Player 3, because they are a lot better than the other ones, and they would "cost" a lot under any point buy scheme. But they are also an organic set, which means that they have genuine features like that spare 13 that can barely qualify you for feats and shit. And most importantly of all, while they cost 39 fucking points, there's still no 18 in there. And that would never ever happen on 39 point-buy.

Yawn. Frank fails to understand the term "vanishingly small". Hint: something that you only notice about 5% of the time (e.g. the difference between a 17 and an 18) is like random noise.

hogarth wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote: There. Everyone is going to take the throws from Player 3, because they are a lot better than the other ones, and they would "cost" a lot under any point buy scheme. But they are also an organic set, which means that they have genuine features like that spare 13 that can barely qualify you for feats and shit. And most importantly of all, while they cost 39 fucking points, there's still no 18 in there. And that would never ever happen on 39 point-buy.

Yawn. Frank fails to understand the term "vanishingly small". Hint: something that you only notice about 5% of the time (e.g. the difference between a 17 and an 18) is like random noise.

Then I guess every system is basically the same as the elite array and we should all just get over it?

-Username17

Kaelik wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote:The reason for an odd highest attribute? Planning. So that at level 20 (if you ever make it there), you can have a 20.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

You get a +5 from Tomes or Wishes. You get +5 from levels.

That means if you were actually planning for level 20, you'd start with an even score.

Your character is just shittier in every way at level 20 than a character with a 16.

Then you're very lucky, on both counts.

There is no reason in the freaking universe for odd stats not to do something.

That people go out of their way to avoid getting an odd stat unless they can accurately predict the end of the campaign is way too metagamey. Either odd stats should increase some more different function or get rid of odd stats altogether.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:There is no reason in the freaking universe for odd stats not to do something.

That's certainly true, but changing the way D&D attributes work is a bit beyond the scope of choosing to use an array or point buy or random generator.

I actually like having an odd score because then that 4th level attribute increase does something.

B-b-but CatharzGodfoot, in 4E there is no such thing as empty levels!

That's why I had retards who haven't read 4th Edition except for the boosterism keep deleting my article in TvTropes about the Empty Level. BECAUSE 4E ALWAYS INCREASES PEOPLES' PARAMETERS DURRRRR.

I really think that was the final straw, come to think.

Maxus wrote:Okay, the Elite Array sucks. If you're playing an MAD class, you're screwed.

Likewise, a buddy has what he calls the Champion Array (18 16 14 12 10 8) and while it's friendlier to MAD, it still scales down pretty hard. Also, it irks me to have to put an 8 in a stat when that doesn't fit the character concept.

Does anyone have something decent they regularly? I think Koumei came up with a couple of arrays for something. Can't remember what or where they are, though.

I use something I call '27-25-23'. Pretty straightforward, described in detail at http://wiki.kjd-imc.org/Ability_Score_Generation

In short, roll 4d6s3 (or 3d6 -- it actually works slightly better, to be honest). Subtract from 27. These are two of your ability scores. Repeat with 25 and 23. Arrange to taste.

This gives a mean of 12.5 (rather than the 12.24 you would expect with 4d6s3 * 6), but gives very organic-looking scores. Odds are quite good you'll have a fairly decent score (16 or higher).

You can do this as a 'point buy' thing, just pick the 'rolls' and go. I allow this, but give those who actually roll a single +2 to one score, not to exceed 18 (so no bumping a 17 to 19, or 18 to 20, but you can bump 16 to 18).

Using this method I've found it's really hard to come up with a character who has unplayable, or even uninteresting, ability scores. SAD vs. MAD you still suffer somewhat, but that's down to the crap design involved in SAD vs. MAD.


Keith