Warhammer 40K: Rogue Trader RPG

[Zinegata]

Hi guys!

Question, has anyone tried out the new Rogue Trader RPG yet? Is it good? Any pitfalls to watch out for?

[Lago PARANOIA]

While we're talking about WH40K, here's a question from someone who has heard mostly boosterism and advertising from the fans.

What is up with the Tau? I heard that they used to be a genuine good-guy race but people got pissed and they were derailed into something evil again? What's the story behind that?

[Zinegata]

While we're talking about WH40K, here's a question from someone who has heard mostly boosterism and advertising from the fans.

What is up with the Tau? I heard that they used to be a genuine good-guy race but people got pissed and they were derailed into something evil again? What's the story behind that?

The Tau (Space Anime Japan) haven't really had any "villainy" upgrades yet. They haven't gotten a new source book published for them in a while. You may be referring to the Eldar (Space Elves)

The official tabletop game rules fluff is that ALL races are evil in one way or another. The Tau are merely unique in that they see diplomacy as the first resort, as opposed to warfare (which is the first resort for everyone else). However, they're still suspected of using mass mind control techniques, they hire questionable, feral, and cannibalistic mercenaries to supplement their own forces, and the recent Dawn of War games strongly indicated they also established concentration camps to wipe out recidivist humans in their conquered territories.

In the novels however (notably Ciaphas Cain, Eisenhorn, and everything not involving the regular Powered Armor Loons), the Tau are generally a very agreeable race who often ends up siding with the Imperium. Of course, the books also tend to give the game-fluff the finger for painting everyone in such an unrelentingly bleak manner that it can only be concluded that they were written by a bunch of propagandists or grimdark frat boys (a fact often alluded to in the novels).

[Koumei]

Of course, the books also tend to give the game-fluff the finger for painting everyone in such an unrelentingly bleak manner that it can only be concluded that they were written by a bunch of propagandists or grimdark frat boys (a fact often alluded to in the novels).

Well, keep in mind that originally it was all tongue-in-cheek: they were having a joke about it. It's just that now 40k thinks it can take itself seriously (it can't).

[Crissa]

My never-painted chaos space marines using the lost marines templates (as opposed to the we-already-have-mutated version) always got groans for using templar and crimson models and painting little tie-dye circles on them.

Alas.

-Crissa

[Lago PARANOIA]

Koumei, Zinegata, I have no idea what you guys are talking about, sorry.

[Zinegata]

Koumei, Zinegata, I have no idea what you guys are talking about, sorry.

What exactly are you looking for exactly?

And nobody has played Rogue Trader here and has any comments?

[Psychic Robot]

I've never played. I have played WFRP, which uses a similar percentile system, and I will say that it's a bit frustrating how unbelievably awful new characters are. Melee combat has the strategy of "charge in and gang-rape your opponents"--you get a +30% WS bonus when you have three or more guys attacking a single opponent. I believe that the magic system in DH/RT are more dangerous/prone to awesome catastrophe than the magic system in WFRP.

Combat can also be frustrating in another way: too much survivability (an odd complain for anything Warhammer). My current game has a bunch of neophyte characters that all have about 3-4 damage resistance (Toughness + light armor). There have been games where you keep swinging your sword but you roll on damage so that it doesn't get through.

That being said, the system is far simpler than D&D, which really appeals to me. It's far from perfect, but it's also really fun, and the fluff is enjoyable.

[Judging__Eagle]

Tau are modelled on chinese uniforms. The supposed reason why Tau isn't accepted well in Japan, despite the fact that they're a 'mecha' and 'animu' looking race.

Also, some of the other undertones. Like, say, being an expansionist government, instead of say a philosophical or spiritually led society with a priest-emperor.

Really, the 40k Imperium is a sort of mockery of WWII Japan's empire. There's a God-Emperor, but he's mostly a figurehead, that can't do anything to affect the nation's policy or direction.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Of course, the books also tend to give the game-fluff the finger for painting everyone in such an unrelentingly bleak manner that it can only be concluded that they were written by a bunch of propagandists or grimdark frat boys (a fact often alluded to in the novels).

What I'm trying to get at is your opinion.

Are you saying that the WH40K universe is so grimdark that if you want to do anything with the setting other than go 'ha ha, look at those saps' you need to pretty much give the setting the finger?

Because from what I know, the actual novels really tone down on the grimdark to actually being outright heroic. They're also really good.

[Koumei]

Lago: exactly. The novels practically break the canon by not being GRIM AND DARK GRIM AND DARK GRIM AND DARK.

The basic canon is that bad. And it was originally that bad as a joke. But now it tries to take itself seriously. And fails.

JE: also, the Tau are ugly and the mecha look bulky and shit. The real weeaboo/actual-Japanese-who-like-what-anime-says-Japanese-want like the Eldar.

[Zinegata]

Yep. The problem with the game fluff is that it is so GRIMDARK that one quickly comes to the conclusion that everyone in the 40K universe is insane, right down to the house wives and infants. Anyone who had the temerity to point out the absurdity of the situation was probably carted off and executed by the Inquisition years ago.

As a result, most of the Warhammer 40K novels actually suck. The heroes were almost always the Space Marines, who can be expected to do lots of killing but have zero character development except for generic "I belong to a brotherhood of warriors" thing that got old very, very quickly. Seriously - all of those Space Marine novels? They may feature Wolfy Marines, Vampire Marines, Flamey Marines, or Plain Old Marines, but the formula was always the same.

That started to change when the best of the Black Library writers (who are notably good writers even outside of 40K) started focusing on the characters OTHER than the Space Marines. Abnett in particular really turned things around when he started writing the Gaunt series, and he accomplished this by following a simple premise: What if all that GRIM DARK was just the writings of Space Marines, Radical Inquisitors, and all the extremists who went insane a long time ago? What if most people in 40K were actually "normal" people?

The result was what could only be described as sheer awesome. The setting is still there with its breathtaking scope, but for once you're actually seeing the setting through normal, sane, and human eyes. You get to see how the setting affects the lives of normal and sane people. You get to see how these people actually get scared and terrified when things start falling apart. And you can start to feel for them when they stand and fight because they chose to do it, rather than because they were built to do it thanks to genetic hanky-panky.

Moreover, the real genius is that the novels honestly don't really contradict the game-fluff at all. The novels always make it a point to note that even if billions died in a day, it's a tiny loss from the perspective of the Imperium. From the perspective of an individual person, seeing a two-billion strong parade is undescribably awesome, but from the setting's overall perspective (game-fluff included), such a parade wouldn't even have merited a footnote.

In short, the problem with 40K lies more with the treatment of the setting rather than the setting itself.

The tabletop game books were frankly written by people as dim as Space Marines, and whose game design skills are so bad that they would even make Mike Mearls cringe. They go "Grim Dark Grim Dark!" because they aren't good enough to do things like character development. Which, ironically, is why the novels often refer to the official fluff as cheap propaganda - it was done by people with little literary skill, and it shows.

The novels, by contrast, offer a treatment that we can relate to because it focuses on individual human beings - with hopes and feelings - rather than some big armored loon who smashes things. From this perspective, 40K is an excellent RPG setting.

And again, these two treatments aren't necessarily contradictory. It's just that one treatment is based on the visions of fanatics and madmen, and the other is based on a simpler, less ostetatious, but more human viewpoint.

[souran]

Guys,

This is so much crap. The fluff for Warhammer is designed to support a WARGAME not an RPG.

A WARGAME needs a reason why everybody is always ready to fight everybody else, why everybody can justifiy their side as "being right" and in general would be a quite screwed up place to live in.

A typicall warhammer (40k or fantasy) GAME doesn't have a story. Why? Because its a table top wargame about painted plastic and metal men. It doesn't have a game master, it doesn't have an ongoing element.

As a backdrop for a wargame, the setting is actually pretty decent. Compare to say mechwarrior, which also has a future where pretty much everything is fucked up 100% of the time. The character of the groups is much more pronounced which is good.

Honestly, anybody who is a mechwarrior grognard, what is the differeance between the factions from oldspacace? What is the difference between the various factions within the clans?


As for the Rogue Trader game, it is basically the same ruleset as used for WFRP but with different character advancement rules. Instead of having to be a rat catcher to get into the filth collector class which for some reason has "world destroying criminal mastermind" as a class exit, you actually pick an occupation (much like dark heresy) and you have advancements that all fit within that scope.

Otherwise, its a pretty straigtforward percentile mechanics game. Roll under your score in percent and you pass, skills are a modifer on top of your abilities, you can buy advancement in basically 5% chunks.

There are a sort of special ability that is not "magic/psyonics" in the form of talents. They are similar to the ones from WFRP only with a grimdark future sounding name or relevant effect.

I didn't read over the psyonics chapter very close but if the thing was not a replica of the magic system from WFRP I will actually go out and but this book at full market price and let the cahsier hit me in the head with it.

If you really like the idea of playing "serenty" in the 40k setting then this game should suffice. Its not bad, its just not particullarly going to win any awards for innovative game design or anything.

The real dissapointment with Rogue Trader is that its "Rogue Trader" and that it was released after "Dark Heresy"

Could Games-Workshop have picked stupier 40k roleplaying concepts? Its like they are purposefully choosing shit that nobody cares about becaue they know that once they release

WRP "Space Marine Hellfire Killteam" (I think this is what the special tyranid fighting units that are made of marines from different chapters brought together are called) nobody will buy anything else ever again, well except maybe WRP "Aspect Warrior"

[Username17]

Honestly, anybody who is a mechwarrior grognard, what is the differeance between the factions from oldspacace?

The Inner Sphere are charactertures of real life Earth cultures. As such they are substantially more different, and have substantially more vibrancy than any WH40K factions. Heck, as it happens they are much more prosaic than the WHFRP nations, even though those nations are built on the same concept.

The Capellan Confederation is a Confucian meritocracy that has a Maoist economic and political structure, while The Federated Suns are a Constitutional Monarchy with an associated rubber stamp council reminiscent of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Capellans are, of course, a pastiche of Maoist China, while the Federated Suns are a pastiche of 19th century Central Europe. Both are actually much deeper than any, and indeed all Warhammer factions, because they have, you know, economies and shit.

As a result, Mechwarrior books, while trashy, are in general much more vibrant and interesting than WH40K books. A foray into Liao space is much more compelling than a foray into Catachan or whatever. The Liaos are "space Chinese" and the 40K Space Catachans are "space Vietnamese" but the Liaos have economic planning and development quotas and all kinds of shit like that - while the 40K guys just have a bunch of Grimdark that they need to mostly ignore if they are to make a story at all.

What is the difference between the various factions within the clans?

Yeah... well... the Clans are bullshit. Basically they are just space elves. Clan Smoke Jaguar are treacherous Dark Elves, Clan Ghost Bear are honorable High Elves, but what-fucking-ever. They are genetically predetermined to be better at "stuff" and they have super weapons that are arbitrarily superior to yours despite the fact that they live their lives in unchanging stasis, preserving their society and never stooping to gauche human weaknesses like science or industry. It doesn't make any fucking sense.

The Clans are there so that you can fight boss monsters and scavenge +1 PPCs that are lighter, hit harder, and have better range than the normal ones that you can buy from factories. They don't have a coherent society, and any time a book treads into Clan Space it becomes as boring as the political discussions in a Dr'zzt book.

-Username17

[endersdouble]

Honestly, anybody who is a mechwarrior grognard, what is the differeance between the factions from oldspacace?

Yeah... well... the Clans are bullshit. Basically they are just space elves. Clan Smoke Jaguar are treacherous Dark Elves, Clan Ghost Bear are honorable High Elves, but what-fucking-ever. They are genetically predetermined to be better at "stuff" and they have super weapons that are arbitrarily superior to yours despite the fact that they live their lives in unchanging stasis, preserving their society and never stooping to gauche human weaknesses like science or industry. It doesn't make any fucking sense.

The Clans are there so that you can fight boss monsters and scavenge +1 PPCs that are lighter, hit harder, and have better range than the normal ones that you can buy from factories. They don't have a coherent society, and any time a book treads into Clan Space it becomes as boring as the political discussions in a Dr'zzt book.

Yes, but they're also genetically enhanced supersoldiers who can beat you playing lacrosse (seriously, read the MW Clan sourcebook. Or whatever book details the invasion, Ghost Bear wins one Trial of Possession for some Periphery world by sending down a bunch of Elementals to crush the local Dallas Cowboys.) You can't tell me that doesn't make up for their flaws.

I think the clans are more interesting than you do, honestly--and if you recall, science is their second biggest interest after war, and until the Invasion they had literally nothing better to do than build new technologies with which to beat up one another--and in particular, they're great for telling stories about individual achievement. Being Nicholas Kerensky is simply better than being Thomas Marik; not because your SRMs are lighter, but because there's only like a thousand (whatever, I don't remember the number and don't have my books with me) Bloodnamed warriors, and there are seventy fucking billion people in the FWL. No, within two jumps of your current location in the FWL. As a Clanner, it's on you to make things happen. In a IS campaign with any sense of realism, any one MW makes about the same difference that a single GI does in WWII.

Furthermore, you're probably right that they're primarily intended to be antagonist: they're a great way to give the IS a reason to actually be worried. (Though some of the logistics don't make FridgeSense. Numerically, the National Guard on one periphery world should probably be able to zerg down all of Jade Falcon. But we ignore that because it'd be boring.)

Remember, Mechwarrior/Battletech is nothing but an excuse to retell western military history, or a bastardized version of it, in an Eastern giant mecha anime. 3025 BT is the Dark Ages, and by 3050 we're back to the 19th century with standing armies, with soldiering being a job rather than a lifestyle. Clans don't really fit into this, but they make a lot more sense as a reason for future-20th-century-America to have a real war than most things I can think of, and that's more fun than fighting future terrorists, who probably wouldn't use 30-foot-tall walking death machines.

Also, the Word of Blake is fucking retarded and so is the Jihad.

[Username17]

(Though some of the logistics don't make FridgeSense. Numerically, the National Guard on one periphery world should probably be able to zerg down all of Jade Falcon. But we ignore that because it'd be boring.

...I actually gotta concede props to the MW authors for writing their way out of that particular problem. The clans have space nukes and come from far enough away that getting their own homeworlds nuked is nominally not a problem (a rather nice Chekhov's Gun for Smoke Jaguar, I must say). Meanwhile, they don't actually value your citizens as people, merely as potential slaves. So they walk up to your planet and say "Dude, we will nuke your planet into nonexistence. No fooling, no mutually assured destruction, no last minute heroics. Just us, in space, and you: a radiated cinderpile at the bottoms of an ashen gravity well. The only way to avoid that fate is to play our completely arbitrary game. And if you win, we will straight up leave, and if you lose you have to surrender the planet wholesale."

That's a deal I can imagine people taking, because the choice of "not playing" involves the entire planet being incinerated in nuclear hellfire. And then of course the game they demand is Aztec-style flower wars between small stars of Clan Mechs and small lances of IS mechs. That's good for the game, because it makes individual tactical battles "important" because it arbitrarily determines the fates of entire planets.

What it does not explain of course, is how they intend to run these "conquered" planets, because their society is really repressive and hateful, and they simply don't seem to have the numbers to handle the kinds of insurgencies they would get on planets with a billion or more people who are unhappy, nationalistic, and uncooperative. But um... that's outside the timeline of the game, so I guess you can kind of ignore it. Still, being resistance fighters in Nova Cat territory sounds like it would make for a pretty cool campaign - if only Mech Warrior was a better system.

Long story short: the actual Clan/Inner Sphere war was pretty cool. And I can forgive its lapses in sense as easily as the lapses in sense from piloting an 8 meter tall killer robot instead of a lower silhouette tank or a gunship that, you know, flies. Which is to say: just barely, but if things are otherwise cool, I'll do it. Certainly much easier than 40k's rants about coal powered space ships. It's just the actual Clans and their "culture" that I find uninteresting. But then, they were designed as high level antagonists, they aren't really supposed to be sympathetic, so it's not a huge problem that they are not.

Also, the Word of Blake is fucking retarded and so is the Jihad.

Fuck yeah it is. Fortunately, the original question didn't mention how interesting Terra was in the setting. Gag me with a spoon.

-Username17

[souran]

The Inner Sphere are charactertures of real life Earth cultures. As such they are substantially more different, and have substantially more vibrancy than any WH40K factions. Heck, as it happens they are much more prosaic than the WHFRP nations, even though those nations are built on the same concept.

The Capellan Confederation is a Confucian meritocracy that has a Maoist economic and political structure, while The Federated Suns are a Constitutional Monarchy with an associated rubber stamp council reminiscent of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Capellans are, of course, a pastiche of Maoist China, while the Federated Suns are a pastiche of 19th century Central Europe. Both are actually much deeper than any, and indeed all Warhammer factions, because they have, you know, economies and shit.

Yes, but the factions don't do anything to your pilots, or your support vehicles, or your mechs. They are invisible. Whats more, The Battletech Master Rules don't give you a quater of the information you talk about, especially the economic information you adore frank.

On the other hand the factions in warhammer all do present a unique playstyle matched to the style of the miniatures produced. Granted this is in many ways a terribad way assign factions and that the vast majority of warhammer 40k games play out like minature versions of crecy or agincoirt where the one side realizes that if they stand still and shoot all their machine guns while the other side rushses at them in the open that the other side will be obliterated likes its 1914 all over again.

Now, that said I am not saying that the fluff for warhammer is amazing, what I am saying is that the fluff is supposed to support the WARGAME not any/the rpg.

Look, Panzer Blitz/Panzer Leader is a good game, the fluff it uses is "Its 1940/1944 and the world is war!"

The game doesn't have to mention soviet oppression of cossaks or that in the United States aferican americans were being descriminated against.

The fluff presented in the 40k game books is totally over the top, but its mostly designed to give a reason for you to place your army on the table and duke it out with the guy on the other side. Its not designed to be remotely objective, or even totally non contradicatory. GW has admitted this, they have admitted they LIKE this.

As a result, Mechwarrior books, while trashy, are in general much more vibrant and interesting than WH40K books. A foray into Liao space is much more compelling than a foray into Catachan or whatever. The Liaos are "space Chinese" and the 40K Space Catachans are "space Vietnamese" but the Liaos have economic planning and development quotas and all kinds of shit like that - while the 40K guys just have a bunch of Grimdark that they need to mostly ignore if they are to make a story at all.

Ok, I admit I have never read a novel with the 40k logo on it. I read one mechwarrior/battletech book back in highschool that a friend loaned me. It was terrible beyond all belief. I also don't read books published by wizards of the coast of white wolf. I made that mistake a few times in college.

Anyway, can we all just agree that "game novels" are almost universally terrible. Honestly, what do you expect when you have staff writters pumping out 250 pages stories every 6 weeks. You get crap novel after crap novel. I like to read pulpy stuff but good god the novels the rpg companies put out are like shit served cold. There are no 40k novels, or mechwarrior novels that are as interesting as honor harrington.



Also some edits:

Frank the game about the low profile tanks and hovering tanks that super destroy shit was made in the 80's. Its based off the old Bolo novels and not suprisingly its called "Bolo" it basically plays like a wierd ogre/jev meets the afformentioned panzer leader.

Also, if you really still want Mecha would suggest heavy gear. The game works better on every convievable level and instead of the robots being huge and the tanks being beer cans to be crushed the mecha are only kinda big and the tanks are gargantuan land battleships.

[Username17]

There are no 40k novels, or mechwarrior novels that are as interesting as honor harrington.

I'm not much of a David Weber fan. I'm more into the Vorkosagen saga. But for all that, you're probably right. While decent licensed military science fiction exists, just as decent licensed anything else exists - the fact that it has a game, video game, or movie tie-in should be a major warning sign that the book is going to suck.

There are some decent Mechwarrior books in the pile. But it's a huge pile and there are some major turds in it. I wouldn't actually ask people to read through it, and I can't remember what the good books actually are called. Which is itself unsurprising since Stackpole has a book called Lethal Heritage and another book called Blood Legacy. They seriously might as well be called "Battletech Novel #17."

But hey, I can actually recommend reading a few specific Shadowrun novels (2XS and Burning Bright for example). It helps that a lot of them have distinctive names and that I can remember which one was which.

-Username17

[souran]

I'm not much of a David Weber fan. I'm more into the Vorkosagen saga. But for all that, you're probably right. While decent licensed military science fiction exists, just as decent licensed anything else exists - the fact that it has a game, video game, or movie tie-in should be a major warning sign that the book is going to suck.

Fair enough. The main point is just that you are never going to get a book or a series of books like the honorverse or ender's game or you something really good.

They seriously might as well be called "Battletech Novel #17."

I actually thought a number of the mechwarrior books were titled with a number on the spine instead of having a title. Or was that star wars. Either way, I am sure I have seen this done before.

Anyway,

The Rogue Trader RPG and WFRP/Dark Heresey should get the standard "Anatomy of a failed Design/Design Review" pieces that are seen here alot.

The real problem with both of them is that except for psyonics/magic characters just can't do very much at all. The talents are ok, but everybody who is not a wizard/psyker I can see feeling like in combat the game lets them shoot things with an admittingly huge array of weapons, but still you shoot, you take cover turn is over.

And while we are talking about Warhammer stuff has anybody got to look through the new Warhammer Roleplay that came out over novermber/december. What are the problems with that system?

[shadzar]

Koumei, Zinegata, I have no idea what you guys are talking about, sorry.

Tau are like an abomination in the universe. They don't fight for the Emperor, nor do they fight against him. They fight solely to protect themselves and to further the cause of the Greater Good, set down by the Air Caste which leads them. The Fire Caste, which make up the warriors, follow the Air Caste like zealots.

I forget what the Water Caste does right now.

The whole spiel for the Tau, with the exception of Commander O'Shovah, if furthering the greater good.

Think of them like Christians setting up missionaries to teach the Word to the savages.

What this Greater Good is they are fighting for other than survival is yet unknown (unless in a novel which I don't read).

So like all of 40k, things are made up as it goes based on Tournaments and such as Eye of Chaos, and the results of the games actuall steer the stories.

So whether C'tan is actually behind the Dawn Blade carried by O'Shovah, or maybe some psyker with great power is controlling the visions of the Ethereals, is yet unknown.

Most people see the concept of "For the Greater Good" to be a cop-out as a way of just trying to take everything over.

The secret of the Tau is about like that of the Dark Angels wherein nobody really knows what the reason they are doing this for is like why Cypher sided with Chaos during the Horace Heresy that caused the Fallen and now the Dark Angels must track him and his fallen down to prevent them from spreading whatever it is he learned back then.

Maybe the two are even connected, Cypher and the Tau.

I think the Tau are just getting a bit more aggressive with the addition of new worlds to the overall cause, like the Vespid troops, and the less recent IG siding with the Tau.

It may be the lack of Tyranid invasion in the Tau sector of space that has allowed them to gain power and speed that some fear or question.

So really, "what is up with the Tau", is a question many players would like answered.

But as long as the Orca's keep swimming space, the Tau will keep dropping onto other planets For the Greater Good.

[Zinegata]

Souran->

Picking the Inquisition and Rogue Traders as the focus for an RPG is actually pretty sensible in my book. If you actually bothered to look beyond the GRIM DARK crap in the tabletop rulebooks written by the dimwits it's actually Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, and their retinues that get to have the sort of high adventure more normally associated with fantasy RPGs. Eisenhorn, for instance, reads very much like a detective story coupled with fantasy/sci fi combat and touches of Chtulu.

Again, the problem with much of the 40K tabletop fluff is that it was pretty much written by someone as dim as a Space Marine. Yes, for some people it's cool to be an 8-foot monster who can shrug off high-calibre rounds and never feel fear in battle, but from the perspective of normal people Space Marines are scary, restrained killing machines at best and outright retards at worst. That's why the Space Marine novels are generally boring - yes they do kill lots of stuff in awesome ways but that's all they ever do.

Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy by contrast are clearly based to a large extent on the novel fluff - particularly the Inquisition Books who often feature colorful bands (adventuring parties in all but name).

Moreover, I don't get your whining about how 40K isn't an ideal RPG setting. Again, perspective matters. The tabletop fluff often deals with things from a "galactic" or "national" level, and from that level everyone is pretty much at war with each other because it's in their nature (Orks, Necrons, Tyranids), or they perceive it's necessary for their survival (Imperium, Eldar, Tau).

From the perspective of individual people however, things like a billion people dying daily in the Eye of Terror isn't necessarily something that affects their daily lives. Again, the setting is huge in scope and you can put your RPG anywhere from a backwater sector to a war-torn one in the thick of the fighting.

Also, does anyone here have ANY experience with the Rogue Trader (or even WHFRP) other than a brief skim-through with snarky comments, because that's something I've already done myself and I don't really need repeats. Actual play experience would be helpful, particularly from the GM perspective.

[Koumei]

I haven't played it, but I have played (and run) Dark Heresy. Consider the people making it. Right? It's everything I expected and less.

People always fail at actions unless you come up with excuses to give them bullshit +30 (or more) bonuses.

Psykers are too good, but still have a small chance of there being the drawback where the whole party instantly dies (SEE, THAT'S BALANCE!) There are many Lore skills that seem too close together to really tell you anything.

A problem in DH but not RT is that it's not even the 40K setting. No, shut up, it's not. You're in a sector they made up for the game (or that was briefly outlined somewhere), hell even the Commissar advance thing isn't the real Commissariat, and you will never see actual equipment that sets 40K apart from "generic shitty cyberpunk setting number 63". In Rogue Trader they actually say "HERE, HAVE POWER ARMOUR AND A BOLTER" at the very start.

Also, characters start at the bottom of the heap, not even worthy of being acolytes to an Inquisitor, and it shows. It's an embarrassment.

Rogue Trader characters are worth 5000 XP, so they're better than DH characters. Except... honestly? Except for the starting gear, I'd rather play a DH character who was just upgraded to the 5000 XP, because nearly all your RT starting XP is pre-allocated so, although the character creation process is interesting, you still don't end up feeling like you have enough choices. Given an important thing to do is spend XP on boosting stats (and taking "Gain +10% to ______" talents) so you don't fail all the fucking time, it's bad that they don't let you spend it on that and then say "Here, you're worth 5K XP."

[Zinegata]

Koumei->

The seemingly low chances of success was a very major concern of mine in Dark Heresy which is why I generally avoided it. Stat-wise it seems that there's a 50-50 chance of success for most actions in Rogue Trader, but I don't know if this improves matters (albeit the Rogue Trader's +10% bonus on any check made by the party seems rather sweet)

I don't really see how Psykers are too good in the context of RT. Most of the powers really seem to be "fire a bolt gun" replacements that anything truly special, except for the puppeteer and mind control stuff.

Also, I dunno about condemning DH as "not 40K". I see it as a decent interpretation of the setting from the perspective of low-level mooks. Most of whom will (and do) end up dying. It's some people's cup of tea, but not mine or my playing group's.

I'm not concerned about how the RT characters are largely "pre-generated". Most of my players will be trying the system the first time and I don't think I want to see what kind of crime against nature they might create if they had all the options available to them .

[Username17]

A major problem of writing the world from the perspective of "a hundred million suns" is the fact that there isn't really anything to latch onto at a level you can interact with. Pretty much anything your characters could see, touch, fight, or save is a grayscale pixel on the main map to such a degree that any city you ever go into may as well be completely obscured by "HERE BE DRAGONS."

In short, when you're playing in the world of 40k, you're having to make up your own campaign world from scratch. All you're really getting out of the deal is some villains who are, as written, way too powerful and evil and numerous for you to do anything about. Chaos and Tyranids are the big bads, and there is nothing you can do about either, because both are galaxy sized.

The actual NPCs, and the city, and the continent, and the planet, and the solar system, and the nearby areas of space, and the commerce routes, and the history of the space region for the last 10 to 20 thousand years are all something you have to make up yourself. So it's kind of like telling the GM to "make up a science fiction setting." with the caveat "you may want to use space orks, the xenomorphs from Aliens, or cthulhu monsters in that setting that you are writing."

-Username17

[shadzar]

Pretty much, you are in the equivalent of SpellJammer where you could run into anything, and a 40k has shown races can come and go.

Squats are here today, and gone tomorrow, Orks never made it to this world, the other world is a complete craftworld...so how exactly can you play an RPG where all the inhabitants are Orks fighting for the same thing?

A 40k RPG sounds like a strange idea when you look at it that way Frank.

It seems more like a board game Babylon5 would work better, where you aren't a single person, but a fleet of ships travelling or something.

That is the only way I could see an RPG version of 40k as an armchair general RPG.

Could you play Cypher on the run? Are you on the quest to find the remains of Russ?

But again traveling form planet to planet didn't work too well for D&D in SpellJammer, else it would still be around.

You have to put everything on one planet. Then the fluff just gets in the way it would seem.