The Gaming Den

My players are really struggling to get their NADs high. Granted, their magic item wishlists are almost always weapons (sometimes AC-armor), and their feats are always combat related, but I'm curious:

1) What are 'basic' NAD defense levels for characters of a certain level? First level characters have an AC around 18, 15th level characters have AC around 31...but I have no idea what the guideline is for NAD defenses. All I know is similar-level monsters with NAD attacks typically need a 3 or so to hit, while needing a 10 or so for AC attacks.

2) Can I get a rundown list, best to worst, of NAD improvers? I reckon best is amulets...past that?

What level is your game btw?

1. About 12 + 3/4 level.

2. Well you've got your feat taxes: Paragon Defenses, Robust Defenses, plus those that give bonuses to just one defense. Other than that, you've got powers that buff defenses/debuff attacks. All of these are of inconsistent and questionable value, given that the game wants PC attacks and defenses to fall behind monster stats over time.

What is NAD?

Non-Armor Class Defense--your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will Defense scores. They're just inverted 3e saves, really.

Also, some of the masterwork armors in Ad Vault improve a given NAD

CatharzGodfoot wrote:What is NAD?

Nad is a shortening of gonad, most commonly used in the plural as a colloquialism.

The thread takes on a whole new life from that perspective.

Didn't notice there was a question in there...thanks for the guideline, still seems a bit low.

7 players (sometimes as few as 5), level 13-14, pretty much.

The polearm fighter has 2 NADs at 19. Your guideline puts them at like 21, but that's still awfully low when you look at the NAD attacks of level 13ish monsters. The level 13 Hook Horror has +19 vs Fort, and even the level 9 succubus has +12 vs Will, and it really should be falling off the RNG by then. The level 14 monsters don't seem to get below +17 vs a NAD.

The NADs don't work very well. If you are a class that gets a good NAD, like say a Gnome Orbizard for Will, you get 1 or 2 from your Class, 4 or 5 from your stat. So at first level, you could have a NAD of 17. If you're a character who does not get a good NAD for Will, like a Hammer Brother, you have a 10. From then one, everyone gets +1 every two levels from pure leveling, and another +1 every 5 levels from upgrading your cloak. But the Gnome Orbizard has their Wisdom increase by 10 over the next 27 levels, and the Hammer Brother's Wisdom increases by 2. So even before we throw in the fact that Gnome Orbizards are going to end up improving their Will Saves with feats and equipment likely more than Hammer Brothers will, the fact remains that Orbizard boy over here is getting a relative improvement of 4 more over the Hammer Bro.

So the NADs vary at high levels by more than 11. Which means that any attack that the game considers "fair" to throw at the Gnome can only miss the Hammer Bro on a natty 1, and any attack that the game considers "fair" to throw at the Hammer Bro can only hit the Gnome on nat 20. The game generally assumes that it is writing for people who min/max their numbers, so essentially every character at even medium level is looking at 1 or 2 NADs that might as well be goose eggs for all the difference they make.

It's just an inherent part of the 4e Math.

-Username17

Draco_Argentum wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote:What is NAD?

Nad is a shortening of gonad, most commonly used in the plural as a colloquialism.

The thread takes on a whole new life from that perspective.

I like the acronym, it means you can refer to using attacks that target saves as "kicking the target in the NADS"

Prak_Anima wrote:

Draco_Argentum wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote:What is NAD?

Nad is a shortening of gonad, most commonly used in the plural as a colloquialism.

The thread takes on a whole new life from that perspective.

I like the acronym, it means you can refer to using attacks that target saves as "kicking the target in the NADS"

Most times when you get kicked in the nads, you don't get no saves. You just fall to the ground prone.

Then you can be targeted anywhere much more effectively.