The Gaming Den

Magic Knight
d10 HD
Good BAB
Good Fort and Will
Martial Weapon proficiency, Medium armor and normal shield Proficiency
4 + Int skill points ()

1 Techique, Magic, Healing,
2 Jack of All Trades, Defensive Sphere
3 Technique, Magic
4 Talent Boost
5 Technique, Magic
6 Swift Skill, Improved Magic
7 Technique, Magic
8 Augmented Healing
9 Improved Technique, Magic
10 Talent Boost
11 Improved Technique, Magic
12 Amazing Skill, Improved Magic
13 Improved Technique, Magic
14 High-Energy Form
15 Best Technique, Magic
16 Talent Boost
17 Best Technique, Magic
18 Smoothest Skill, Improved Magic
19 Best Technique, Magic
20 Unity of All

Technique: Pick Demon Fang or Sonic Thrust or Light Spear. I'll add more later.

Demon Fang: This technique requires a weapon which can be reasonably expected to do slashing damage (such as a sword or axe). It is a ranged attack as an attack action, and is essentially identical to a melee attack, with all relevant bonuses and multipliers.

Sonic Thrust: This technique requires a weapon which can reasonably be expected to be used in a thrust (such as a rapier or longsword).

Light Spear: This technique requires a one-handed weapon. It lifts the opponent.

Rain of Blows:

Magic: Pick one 'spell' each time you gain the ability Magic. Casting is usually a standard action which provokes an AoO. You do not take a spell failure chance from armor or shields you are proficient in, but other distractions can make you lose the spell.

Selecting the same element of a spell unlocks a more advanced form of it, but a given element can only be selected three times.

Spells are divided up into Basic, Advanced, and Expert. Basic spells require a standard or move action and Advanced spells take a full round. Expert spells take a round to 'construct' and then a round to release. This holds until the Magic Knight gains abilities which improve his spellcasting.

When the Magic Knight casts magic, he must wait around before doing it again.

Basic spells do 2 damage of their energy/damage type per character level + A mental stat of your choice (This is the casting stat and can't be changed once selected).

Advanced Spells do 3 damage of their energy/damage type per character level + the casting stat.

Expert spells do 4 damage of their energy/damage type per character level + the casting stat.

Any effects which require a save uses DC 10 + A Number (usually 1/2 character level) + the character's casting stat. Any spells which also mimic combat maneuvers use the Magic Knight's own bonuses for these, with any modifications described.

Basic Magic:

-Firedarts: A ranged touch attack which does fire damage and dazes the enemies.

-Wind Blade: A ranged touch attack which does a bit of ongoing damage.

-Stone Blast: Bludgeoning damage with the earth subtype and a bull rush, maybe.

-Lightning: Lightning damage, blinded and deafened for a round.

-Icicle: Ice damage, save or lose your next move action.

-Aqua Edge: Slashing damage with the water subtype. Ignores the Casting Stat's value in Armor/Natural Armor AC and DR.

-Acid Spray: Acid damage, Sickens the opponent.

Advanced Magic: You may now upgrade your original magic spells by selecting one of the same element. The new upgrades do 3*character level damage + 2*Casting stat.

Eruption: A ten-foot radius effect which does fire damage and (can knock people prone?)

Air Thrust: a 10-foot-radius sphere of tearing wind which does slashing damage and can disarm.

Grave: First, a Hold Down is initiated, using the Magic Knight's BAB + Casting Stat + 4 against DC 10 + (Opponent's BAB + Str or Dexterity + Size bonus). Should the Hold Down succeed, the opponent is considered pinned until the beginning of the Magic Knight' next turn, and they take 5/character Level + Casting Stat in Constriction damage.

Thunderblade: Lightning bolt hits target, does half-damage to those within 10 feet, some kind of effect...

Freeze Lancer: Shoot icicle spears at people. Effect later.

Aqua Laser: A line effect, does a bull rush to everyone in the way.

Acid Rain: Area Acid damage and eats into their armor.

Expert magic:

Explosion: Fire damage, thrown, fall prone.

Wind:

Earth:

Lightning:

Water:

Acid:

First Aid: The Magic Knight can heal one person within 30 feet as a standard action. This heals 2 damage per character level, plus his casting stat.

Jack of All Trades: The Magic Knight gets free skill ranks in a few skills. Number of skills to be determined later.

Defensive Sphere: Once every five rounds as an immediate action, the Magic Knight may summon up a defensive barrier which gives him either 90% Damage reduction or 90# Energy resistance. It also blocks line of effect.

Talent Boost:[/i] Choose one of: Technique, Magic, or Skill. Each time Technique is chosen (some buff to abilities, extra damage, increase DCs, etc). Each time Magic is chosen, magic and Healing effects go up by 2. Each time Skill is chosen, choose another skill to get free ranks in. This does not work if you ditch the class.

Swift Skill: A basic technique or spell takes one attack action, and thus can be used in a full attack.

Spellsword: You have the edge against enemies you've successfully struck with magic for one round after they've been hit.

Channel Power: Your weapon attacks are backed up with the element damage, and can combine techniques with magic. This takes the highest action out of the two (so right now, doing a technique with some power channeled would be a standard action).

Augmented Healing: By combining the elemental forces of magic and the energy of Healing, the Magic Knight can create a healing effect over an area as a full-round action. Once created, it lasts for a number of rounds equal to his casting stat. This is a 10-foot-radius effect. His healing value increases to 5*character level +character's casting stat. Creatures entering the area are healing for his healing value.

Amazing Skill: Improved Techniques and magic now take two attacks out of a full attack. Basic techniques and magic can be a swift action.

Improved Technique:

Fierce Demon Fang:

Super Sonic Thrust:

Victory Light Spear: Hit, Lift, AoO

High-Energy Form: A buffed up state similar to Rage. Except does more actions rather than more damage, generally. Has a theme (angelic, demonic, etc.)

Best Technique:

Demonic Circle: Heavy damage to all nearby

Ultra Sonic Thrust: Super stabbing attack!

Light Spear Cannon: Hit, lift, crit.

Rain of Blows: Several more hits.

Smoothest Skill: Best techniques now take two attacks out of a full attack. Improved techniques take one attack, and you get both a free action and a swift action to use basic techniques and spells.

Unity of All: The Magic Knight now understands how all forces of the universe work together, and is now able to maintain High-Energy Form all the time if he so chooses.

Doesn't wizard 20 fit this theme pretty well? We really don't need yet another fucking gish base class because they all suck ass by trading power now for power later or vice versa and that blows ass. Honestly the closest thing we have to an arcane caster/warrior in D&D would be a swordsage or wizard 20. To say nothing of clerics. Seriously, we already have classes for this sort of thing.

Seriously, at least don't give any sort of actual spellcasting if you're going to try this.

ubernoob wrote: Seriously, at least don't give any sort of actual spellcasting if you're going to try this.

I wasn't going to. And I was going to try to remedy the borrow power thing. I mean, come on. It can't be hard to just make everything scale and give weapon damage as well as 'magic' (read: energy-based damage abilities with a special effects budget).

And it might help sort out Evocation for the Tome of Tiamat.

I'd make a real effort to have the magical abilities of this class work with combat feats. You're going full BAB, so you might as well help gish take advantage of it.

At 1st level you could really just give them a ranged elemental touch attack plus the base stats you've outlined. They'll play something like a fire mage and something like a fighter.

You could also create combos that require hitting someone with a weapon attack and then an elemental attack or vice versa (for example, blowing someone up makes them flat footed for the next melee attack you make against them; stabbing them gives your elemental attacks the edge).

This also might be a good point to attempt to create a ritual subsystem for utility magic, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself.

I would make Sonic Thrust be a weapon attack combined with a 10 foot step or some other straight line of movement that didn't provoke attacks of opportunity. Perhaps a damage boost or the ability to avoid other forms of reactive damage at various points.

The Soldier class ( http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50504 ) might be worth looking at for some ideas.

Particularly, some potential damage guidelines for a standard action melee attack:

Brutal Strike
Level: 1
The Soldier hits someone super hard with a melee attack. The attack does an extra d6 of damage. This bonus increases to 2d6 at 3rd level, 3d6 at 4th level, 4d6 at 6th level, 5d6 at 7th level, 7d6 at 8th level, 9d6 at 9th level, 11d6 at 10th level, 14d6 at 11th level, 16d6 at 12th level, 20d6 at 13th level, 100 points at 14th level, 110 points at 15th level, 125 points at 16th level, 150 points at 17th level, 175 points at 18th level, 200 points at 19th level, and 250 points of damage at 20th level.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I'd make a real effort to have the magical abilities of this class work with combat feats. You're going full BAB, so you might as well help gish take advantage of it.

Good point...Any suggestions?

At 1st level you could really just give them a ranged elemental touch attack plus the base stats you've outlined. They'll play something like a fire mage and something like a fighter.

I'd already decided to throw a 'spell' in there, possibly fire or wind or something.

You could also create combos that require hitting someone with a weapon attack and then an elemental attack or vice versa (for example, blowing someone up makes them flat footed for the next melee attack you make against them; stabbing them gives your elemental attacks the edge).

Hell yes.

This also might be a good point to attempt to create a ritual subsystem for utility magic, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself.

...Actually, the Dresden Files might be a decent way for this. I'll do a tentative writeup later.

Wizard 20?

Filled out the 'spells' some. I'll add Ice and Acid and something in a bit.

Added a tentative progression and I'll sort out abilities names and descriptions later.

What I have right now:

Techniques come in three flavors--Normal, Improved, and Best, all based around the same concept. So Demon Fang becomes Fierce Demon Fang, doing more damage to someone within about ten feet of you. The Best Technique would be...I dunno, a burst which affects everyone around him for heavy damage.

"Magic" is at base, some energy/elemental damage and an effect. Later abilities do more damage and so on, and Fast Casting makes it useable as part of a full attack takes away the AoO you'd provoke.

Healing is at first only on one person, and then you can do area healing, or healing areas, or whatever. Also, it scales.

Talent boost gives a small a boost to one of the above. So magic damage gets a small per-level boost, as does healing effects. I'll work on techniques...

Filled in some stuff.

Also, occurs to me that the Gish could be doing the same thing, using the same principles, but with a psionic theme.

Anyone have any critiques/advice?

Had an inspiration which, sadly, made me too alert to go back to sleep.

Okay, the Magic Knight and Gish are the same class (mostly).

The other difference is the Magic Knight gets 'spells' and the Gish gets 'powers'.

The difference is the 'spells' do direct damage (usually), while the Gish's powers are effects--minor self-buff, teleportation, debuff, etc. There should be a damage ability in there, too, of course.

So the Magic Knight gets all Explodey abilities, and the Gish gets the tactical stuff.

Oh, and the Gish has different ability names for a lot of things.

Thinking about patterning some Gish 'powers' after Cress from Tales of Phantasia. Late in the game he gets a "Dimension Blade" and an attack which moves him through space.

Gish
d10 HD
Good BAB
Good Fort and Will
4 + Int Skill points (Mobility, Stealth, Knowledge, etc.)

Proficiency: Simple and Martial Weapons, Light and Medium Armor, Shields (but not great shields)

Special: Both Githyanki and Githzerai have Gishes and even teach and train Gishes in similar ways. However, they both have their own unique styles.

While they both can acquire and hone the same powers, they have different tendencies. Githyanki prefer powers which affect other people or objects--firing energy, forming items, enhancing their weapons, etc. The Githzerai, meanwhile, prefer powers which have a personal effect--Such as increasing strength or alterting their physiology or increasing their mental clarity.

Githyanki Gishes, hereafter referred to as Gishyanki, get Heavy Armor Proficiency and later can use a Talent boost to get the Great Shields (or something)

Githzerai Gishes, hereafter referred to as Gishzerai, have the option of ditching the martial weapon, armor, and shield proficiecies, to get the Dungeonomicon Monk's Lethal Strike, Armored in Life (Here called Inertial Armor), and Willow Step (Here called Perfect Reaction or something).

Both get a special Technique option, to be detailed below.

1 Technique, Power
2 Jack of All Trades, Defensive Screen
3 Technique, Power
4 Talent Boost
5 Technique, Power
6 Swift Skill
7 Technique, Power
8 Augment Power,
9 Improved Technique, Power
10 Talent Boost
11 Improved Technique, Power
12 Amazing Skill
13 Improved Technique, Power
14 Perfect Harmony
15 Best Technique, Power
16 Talent Boost
17 Best Technique, Power
18 Smoothest Skill
19 Best Technique, Power
20 Unity of Mind

Technique:

Demon Fang:

Sonic Thrust:

Light Spear:

Rain of Blows: Bonus attacks.

Gishyanki: Beast: Big, heavy-damage hit.

Gishzerai: Graceful Strike: I'll work this out.

Power: Based on the Magic Knight's spells. Several different themes of powers. Can take each theme up to three times to unlock more/better uses.

Combat Teleport:

Basic:

Advanced:

Expert:

Unlock Potential:

Basic: You get an enhancement bonus equal to 1/3 character levels to your physical ability scores

Advanced: You focus your mind and remove all extraneous and unnecessary thoughts, giving you a morale bonus equal to 1/3 character level

Expert: More stat boosts.

Telepathy:

Basic:

Advanced:

Expert:

Energy Ray:

Basic: Light/Force damage, ranged touch attack.

Advanced: Line/cone. Damage boost for the ranged touch.

Expert: Even bigger line/cone. Damage boost for the smaller forms.

Ectoplasmic Shaping: Crystal-swarm thing, creating grease/difficult terrain effects

Dimensional Blade: Increased crit matrix, reach, and something else

Most of the rest of the abilities are equivalent to the Magic Knight's.

The most important question, I think, is whether Kratos or Zelos is better.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about balance. But there are some parts that need changing or explaining. Some examples:

Maxus wrote: Demon Fang: This technique requires a weapon which can be reasonably expected to do slashing damage (such as a sword or axe). It is a ranged attack as an attack action, and is essentially identical to a melee attack, with all relevant bonuses and multipliers.

Sonic Thrust: This technique requires a weapon which can reasonably be expected to be used in a thrust (such as a rapier or longsword).

Light Spear: This technique requires a one-handed weapon. It lifts the opponent.

Why not just require the weapon do slashing or piercing damage rather than "reasonable expectations"? And what exactly does lifting the opponent do?

As an aside, I hope you won't require the PC to use each technique a number of times to learn the higher levels.

First Aid: The Magic Knight can heal one person within 30 feet as a standard action. It does 2 damage per character level, plus his casting stat.

Needs changing to heals 2 damage.

Defensive Sphere: Once every five rounds as an immediate action, the Magic Knight may summon up a defensive barrier which gives him either 90% Damage reduction or 90# Energy resistance. It also blocks line of effect.

Nothing else does % DR or ER. Why not just have DR 3 x HD for example? And is it against one attack or until the start of the next turn?

Improved Technique:

Fierce Demon Fang:
Super Sonic Thrust:
Victory Light Spear: Hit, Lift, AoO

Do you get a choice between Double Demon Fang and Fierce Demon Fang? And why do some Techniques have effects and others don't? That also happens in Magic, with acid also Sickening which others don't do.

Gishyanki and Gishzerai?

Parthenon wrote:Good points

Weapons: Honestly, because I'd like them to have a little leeway. A longsword can totally be used to stab someone as well as slash.

Techniques: Yes, you do get Double Demon Fang. It's called "Basic Techniques are now an attack action." and kicks it around level 10. Also, hell no on using them 50 times and then hoping to spontaneously gain the upgrade. Just get up to level 9 or so and then pick the one you want.

Change: Will be done in a moment.

Effects: I'm working on effects for most things and will try to add effects or bonuses of some kind or another to those which don't have them, but my well of creativity ran dry for what acid can do to someone as a basic. Suggestions will be thoughtfully considered. Lift is as per the RoW grapple maneuver maneuver--or, wait, now that I look at that. Maybe they just lose a move action or something.

DR: I used percent % DR because I wanted something which scales without me writing even more ability names like, "EVEN BETTER DEFENSE!". It's not like it's that hard--Figure up damage normally, then divide by 10. Rounds up. Always does at least 1 damage. Tips its waitress, but it only blocks one attack or effect per use.

Pun: Yes, I'm proud of that one.