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ggroy
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Post by ggroy »

Last edited by ggroy on Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

ggroy wrote:Anyone know why exactly the cleric was made to be a "healer" in the earlier editions of D&D/AD&D? Or for that matter, why the cleric was made into a D&D class in the first place?
Mike Mornard wrote: Ahem. I was there.

In CHAINMAIL there were wizards that functioned as artillery.

Then there was Dave Arneson's first miniatures/roleplaying campaign. Some players were 'good guys' and some players were 'bad guys' and Dave was the referee.

One of the 'bad guys' wanted to play a Vampire. He was extremely smart and capable, and as he got more and more experience he got tougher and tougher.

This was the early 70s, so the model for 'vampire' was Christopher Lee in Hammer films. No deep folklore shit.

Well, after a time, nobody could touch Sir Fang. Yes, that was his name.

To fix the threatened end of the game they came up with a character that was, at first, a 'vampire hunter'. Peter Cushing in the same films.

As the rough specs were drawn up, comments about the need for healing and for curing disease came up.

Ta da, the "priest" was born. Changed later to 'cleric'.

The bit about edged weapons was from Gary's reading the old stories about Archbishop Turpin, who wielded a mace because he didn't want to shed blood ("who lives by the sword dies by the sword").

In other words, it came about the same way that 90% of the D&D rules came about :

WE MADE UP SOME SHIT THAT WE THOUGHT WOULD BE FUN.
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Post by Username17 »

Death and Conquest

It is important that the players have the ability to lose. Without having failure be a reasonable possibility, the tactical choices a player makes become meaningless. The die rolls lose their drama and their importance. Truly, you do the players no service when you make defeat impossible. And yet, it is also important that the game not actually end when the players are defeated, because otherwise there's no campaign. And really, there are three ways to handle that:
  • Have the players lose without their characters actually dying.
  • Have the players make new characters and continue playing.
  • Allow dead characters to return to life.
The final one is the most problematic, but it has to be addressed in a fantasy game. There are vampires and shades and stuff, so things do come from beyond the grave on a regular basis. So having dead people actually resurrected is fairly expected. And it is in many ways worse for the game if resurrection is more time consuming or difficult – because it translates directly into the player of the dead character having to sit out for longer periods of the actual game. However, the degree to which death is a revolving door actually harms the game world in equal measure: when death is established to not be “the end” in any meaningful sense of the term, a lot of the drama just can't be replicated. If the princess getting fed to the dragon is a minor annoyance, there isn't a lot of reason to go on the quest to save her in the first place.

And you can see how there is relatively little room for making it up as you go along on this issue. Any decision you make will have far reaching implications as to what rational behavior looks like, as well as what stories are even possible. These assumptions therefore go in early in the definitions of rules, and have cascading effects throughout the system. If people at an individual table decide to house rule these issues, they will have to change many parts of the system in ways varying from subtle to substantial. So here we go, and let's walk through the knock-down effects:

Mostly Dead and Beyond the Grave

The first conceit being introduced is the idea of being “mostly dead” (like in The Princess Bride). The idea is that a character can be fatally injured but still have some life in their body somewhere that can be magically healed. This has some background in modern medical understanding as tissue does not all die at once, and people really can be brought back from what used to be classified as “death” through the intervention of CPR (although the window on that is pretty narrow). Once a person passes to “all dead” they will not return to life, though they may come back as some sort of undead creature. A weak or unimportant character (that is to say one with a “low power level”) that becomes undead comes back as a rampaging monster, while someone of real power and destiny can come back and still be in control of themselves. Thus it is that players who play for a long time earn themselves an “extra life” as a vampire or wight or something. And powerful major villains may have to be taken down twice. And perhaps most importantly of all: the players can find someone who has “been murdered” and have that be a big deal, while at the same time a player can get eviscerated by a manticore and still not have the game end.

And that of course has knock-down effects on the rest of the game. When you introduce the possibility of bringing dropped characters back from Death's door, you equally introduce the very real possibility of the victors repeatedly smashing the heads of their defeated opponents between cobblestones and their own Gallagher hammers until that window of possibility is closed. Which means that if the whole “mostly dead” window is to have any actual meaning, it has to be that taking enemies prisoner rather than simply pulping their skulls, is a rational thing to do. And that means in turn that several criteria have to be met:
  • The portrayal of the enemy has to be something less than “ultimate evil.” When you face off against the Serpent People, the assumption needs to be that these guys are people that you are at war with rather than pitiless monsters with which there is no possibility of parlay.
  • A captured enemy needs to be worth more than a dead one. Not merely the same amount, but actually more, because of course dealing with captives is a pain in the ass. The most obvious way to do this is to have a final war accounting in which soldiers who are “lost” count the same regardless of whether they are captured or killed, plus trading prisoners back or sacrificing them to dark gods on the next full moon has an additional value on top of that. So in the war against the Intulo Palatinate it would be better to capture 6 Intulo Warriors than to slaughter them, because at the negotiation stage you would get some concessions for having taken out such and such number of soldiers and in addition be able to get more concessions be ransoming the still living warriors back to their families.
  • Slaughtering downed enemies has to be portrayed as something that is evil and “just isn't done.” To the point that the players can rely upon being captured and ransomed back if they fall in battle themselves, rather than summarily coup de graced or eaten.
Now as to coming back from beyond the grave, this should only be possible if the character is not actually in a grave at the time. And the reason for this is fairly simple: it is desirable that villagers should put corpses into grave yards and then get pissed off if people monkey with the corpses. And that really only makes sense if graveyards are somehow protective against zombie uprisings.
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Post by Parthenon »

Yes, but this requires that there be someone willing to pay the ransom. Which requires one of several things:
  • The PC has a lot of money stored up and has someone trustworthy to deal with ransoms. - Not feasible for characters who spend all their money, have no money or piss off so many people that they can't trust anyone.
  • They are from a rich family who will pay ransoms - Requires a specific backstory and so not feasible for all characters, and logically leading to at times some of the party being ransomed but not others.
  • They are part of an organisation such as a Fighters Guild who pay off ransoms in return for dues - requires the setting to have the guilds and so will not work in most settings.
  • The PCs being part of an army or mercenary group and the leader pays off the ransom for the whole army - severely limits the campaign in many ways.
So what about stories where the PCs are from a small village in the middle of nowhere that are, say, adventuring to try to get their families out of stupendous debt and so sending all their money home, and have pissed off all the guilds by proving their corruption at high levels. They have noone with enough money to pay a ransom and so will just be left in a dungeon forever, leading to the same problems as now where you have to come up with some bullshit justification of how they manage to escape and get all their equipment back.

Ransoming is a good idea, but it can mean that only some of the party get ransomed or it limits the campaign or PCs quite strictly. Of course you are already changing the setting by changing the rules to make ransoming more likely so people may be okay with that.
Last edited by Parthenon on Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Ransoms are not just gold denominated, they are also denominated in prisoner exchanges and "victory." So if you're fighting the soldiers of Baron Kr'rbvrt and they capture one of your team mates after you lose a fight, then you're going to give back a certain number of their soldiers to get him out of the dungeon. If you don't have any gold, or land, or captives of your own... then you lose. The Baron wins and you guys surrender whatever it is that he was fighting you over and you clear out of town with your tail between your legs.

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Post by violence in the media »

Well, you could look at that problem as an opportunity to have actual social pressures in your game. The PCs may really want to expose the corruption of the evil guildmaster, but they don't because they know they need to make nice for the time being in case they need the guild to have their back. They can move against the guildmaster once they also have someone to install in his place that will remain friendly to them. I think this would actually be a good thing, because it essentially requires the PCs to have a greater interaction with, and dependence on, the world and NPCs. As it is, PCs tend to adopt an attitude of "fuck it, we're never coming back to this town again." Oftentimes, even if it's in the village they grew up in.

All of a sudden you have actual motivations beyond the players saying, "well, I guess I'll go on this adventure to rescue the sister of this weird girl I just met, and don't like very much, because weird girl is a PC and the DM pretty clearly intends for us to do this." It can even function as a sort of good/evil metric in your campaign world, without having that be a firm mechanical construct.

Good characters generally believe in love and trust and honor and all that, and expect others to help when it's needed and will do the same in return. They go rescue the princess because that's what good people do for other people. They know that the king or the princess or whoever will help them out in return, because the players have shown that their characters are good people.

Evil characters, on the other hand, generally don't trust people and only believe that things will get done on their behalf if others are compelled to do so. So an evil character will extort, blackmail, and intimidate people into doing the things they need or want done, because they feel that is the only way. Or maybe they just like doing it that way, whatever.

Now, both of these characters can interact with the ransom culture through different approaches. The good character can be confident that someone they've helped in the past, or that simply admire their deeds, will come up with a ransom. Possibly even at hardship to themselves (and leading to more adventures, as the PCs help their aunt pay back the loan she took to free them). The evil character, on the other hand, may have an associate that will publish proof of the countess' affairs if she doesn't pony up the cash for a ransom when needed. Or, maybe the PC has falsified evidence that will start a war--in his absence--that the duke doesn't want. The two characters can even cross and intermingle. Maybe the good character has some hold over an NPC that allows them to manipulate them into doing what they want. Maybe they don't wipe out all the manticores terrorizing a village so that they remain needed. Maybe the evil PC has a spouse that genuinely cares for them. Maybe they founded an orphanage in their home town. Maybe they obligated a good (sucker) character to reciprocate because they helped them out first. In no case do they necessarily need to have "hoard 'o cash set aside for ransoms" marked anywhere on their character sheets. You'd probably want to get away from the idea of level-appropriate wealth entirely, so that the PCs could actually hijack a caravan or treasure galleon and not have the tons of gold turn into vertical power magical artifacts.

Lastly, you now have an extra tool that can put PCs on notice without being a "you die!" moment. Getting expelled from your guild for being a jerk, or not having any active schemes, can be a dangerous proposition as now you've lost that societal support network. You're not in immediate peril, but you also have reason to believe that the ogre negotatior might just get "go ahead and eat him" as a response to your capture now.

Hell, you could probably add some sort of culture of mercy and life-debts into this ransom culture as well. Basically, more reasons for a victor to spare the life of vanquished opponents is a good thing.
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Post by Prak »

There's another option for PCs who can't afford capitulation, ransom, etc. And it's one that at least seems good for the game:
Prison Break.

Technically this option's there whether they can pay or not, but a party can always regroup, re-equip, and return to break their fallen comrade out of the Baron's dungeon, and the fallen comrade can, assuming consciousness, try to break out himself, and thus, if all goes well, the party and the character meet up in the middle, most dramatically would be the party grabbed Sir Peter's equipment from the armoury, and Sir Peter's been making his way with an improvised cudgel, so when they meet the party hands him his armour and sword and they proceed to kick ass as a team. They then, assuming they win, have the option of leaving fallen foes behind as "a prisoner trade" or take them, though in this situation taking them would likely cause the Baron to do same thing, attack with the intent of freeing his men.
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Post by PoliteNewb »

FrankTrollman wrote: When you introduce the possibility of bringing dropped characters back from Death's door, you equally introduce the very real possibility of the victors repeatedly smashing the heads of their defeated opponents between cobblestones and their own Gallagher hammers until that window of possibility is closed. Which means that if the whole “mostly dead” window is to have any actual meaning, it has to be that taking enemies prisoner rather than simply pulping their skulls, is a rational thing to do. And that means in turn that several criteria have to be met:
  • The portrayal of the enemy has to be something less than “ultimate evil.” When you face off against the Serpent People, the assumption needs to be that these guys are people that you are at war with rather than pitiless monsters with which there is no possibility of parlay.
  • A captured enemy needs to be worth more than a dead one. Not merely the same amount, but actually more, because of course dealing with captives is a pain in the ass. The most obvious way to do this is to have a final war accounting in which soldiers who are “lost” count the same regardless of whether they are captured or killed, plus trading prisoners back or sacrificing them to dark gods on the next full moon has an additional value on top of that. So in the war against the Intulo Palatinate it would be better to capture 6 Intulo Warriors than to slaughter them, because at the negotiation stage you would get some concessions for having taken out such and such number of soldiers and in addition be able to get more concessions be ransoming the still living warriors back to their families.
  • Slaughtering downed enemies has to be portrayed as something that is evil and “just isn't done.” To the point that the players can rely upon being captured and ransomed back if they fall in battle themselves, rather than summarily coup de graced or eaten.
Is there a viable fourth option, in the Final Fantasy model? This one holds that "downed" (mostly dead) characters are out of the fight, but cannot be easily coup de graced unless the battle is over. So as long as there's not a TPK (or a retreat where fallen allies are left behind), everybody can be back on their feet next fight, courtesy of a little Phoenix Down. If there IS a TPK...break out the dice, new story time. Or break out the deux ex machina, if the players don't mind that.

I don't personally have a problem with this one, as I find TPKs a fairly rare occurrence in my games...and it makes the "fighting retreat" where the old military credo about not leaving a man behind makes sense. The key thing is to make it mechanically viable.
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Post by Username17 »

There wouldn't be a "fourth option" because those aren't options. That's an inclusive list of things that are all simultaneously true in the advent of that treatment of death. There are of course, an unlimited number of potential other ways to treat death, that would have different (even unrecognizably different) knock down effects.

Primary and Secondary Concepts

The characters played in a fantasy game are expected to have eclectic concepts. It's a genre which supports pegasus riding archers (like Bellerophon), animal-souled psychic assassins (like Fitz), and dwarf magicians (like Willow). And those guys can no only function in the same world, they may very well be expected to join together in the same party. And yet, it is still important to note that a player does not have the obligation or even the right to play anything that they want. There are profound and important limits that a player must conform to.
  • A concept must be within genre. A kitchen sink setting is still a fantasy setting. So “jet fighter pilot” or “space alien” are generally speaking off limits.
  • A concept must be compatible with “adventuring.” There are probably Minotaur hermits and Trollish farmers in the world, but they (and any other character concepts along those lines) don't have a justification for getting together in an eclectic group of adventurers to go fight battles, explore caverns, and slay dragons. That means that they can't be played.
  • A concept can't “do everything.” The character is going to be in an ensemble cast with at least one other “star” for each player at the table. This means that the kind of total versatility character that fills single-hero fiction just does not fly. You don't get to be Batman from the Dark Knight Returns, you have to be the Batman from Justice League Unlimited.
  • A concept can't be “too powerful.” It's fine to be a “martial artist” but a character is coming in at the same power level as the other characters. So while it's fine for a character to be “a badass” they can't be more of a badass than the other characters.
  • A concept cannot be “too needy” of face time. Weirdly, there is actually a limit on how interesting a character can be in a cooperative storytelling game. After all, the other characters have to get a word in edgewise. On the flip side of course, a character does need to have some dramatic hooks so that they can actually fight for that face time.
  • And perhaps most importantly of all, a concept can't step too hard on the feet of another character in the game.
What that means is that a character needs to have a primary schtick, a secondary schtick, and background. Having less than that makes the character boring. Having more than that makes the character either a drama thief or a confusing mess. Or all too frequently, both. In an ensemble cast for a cooperative storytelling game, there just isn't room in the adventure for characters to develop with a list of schticks that is too long.

So what constitutes a schtick or a background? What makes a schtick primary or secondary? The answer is that these are things that the character does to solve problems within the game. A background is something about the character that does not necessarily have a big impact on how they solve problems generally, but could come up in that context and acts as a role playing hook in any case. This means that surprisingly, the order you describe something about a character may well be the exact opposite of the order of relative game importance. And that's fine.

Imagine that you had a character who was a Dwarf who used a bow and was a necromancer of considerable skill. If you were to describe him, you'd start with the fact that he is a dwarf, and then go on to the fact that he is carrying a bow, and only later would you get to the part where he talks to spirits. But in game terms, his ghost control abilities are going to be the most important ones for solving problems, so that's his primary schtick. The character's Necromancer abilities are the primary schtick, so that becomes the “Primary Class,” while the character's Ranger abilities are the secondary schtick, so that becomes the “Secondary Class.” His Dwarfiness is fine and all, but it's not really one of his classes at all, it's just an important fact about the character. What you actually write on the character sheet is “Dwarf Necromancer Ranger.”

And yet, there actually are species that one could play that are a means to solve problems of sufficient importance that they count as the character's secondary or even primary schtick. And these species get what are called “Racial Classes” that come with them. So for example, if a character is a Minotaur swordsman, it is reasonable to believe that they will turn to the fact that they are a minotaur to solve problems relatively frequently. The character's primary class is Hero, and their secondary class is Minotaur. So you actually write “Minotaur Hero Minotaur” on your character sheet. It may seem redundant, but it helps a fair amount. Some racial classes are so important and drawn upon to solve problems with such regularity that they constitute primary classes all by themselves. For example: a character who was a Dragon Warlock would actually write “Green Dragon Dragon Warlock” on their character sheet.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

FrankTrollman wrote:For example: a character who was a Dragon Warlock would actually write “Green Dragon Dragon Warlock” on their character sheet.
This draws perilously close to Vampire Vampire Hunter Hunter territory.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Green Dragon Dragon Warlock is pretty hilarious though, but really redundant as well. So if your class/subclass matches your race, for the sake of semantics it makes more sense to just say you're a Minotaur Hero or a Hero Minotaur or a Green Dragon Warlock. If it's important enough to take a shtick slot, it can truncate down.

I take it this is where 5th Edition is going then?
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Post by TheWorid »

Listing the same thing twice is confusing, even though the reasoning behind it is sound. That's why there's a "True Neutral", rather than a "Neutral Neutral".

To eliminate the redundancy but keep the concept, could not one give a distinct name to the "racial class" versions of races? So a minotaur racial class would be perhaps given a word in the minotaur tongue that basically means "fighter" or "labyrinth guardian" or whatever, but indicates that it is the particular brand of fighter that the racial class is supposed to be. One could also skip the translation step and just say "Labyrinth Guardian".
Last edited by TheWorid on Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by TavishArtair »

*looks at personal game design notes*

Dammit, Frank, stop copying meeeeeeee!!!

*cough* Sorry.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Character: Sir Littlesworth Chadstick.
Race: Purple Draconian Born.
Class: Knight of the Rose/Purple Draconian Born.

"Sir Littlesworth Chadstick, the Purple Draconian Born Knight of the Rose"

...it all depends on context.
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Post by Ganbare Gincun »

FrankTrollman wrote:And that of course has knock-down effects on the rest of the game. When you introduce the possibility of bringing dropped characters back from Death's door, you equally introduce the very real possibility of the victors repeatedly smashing the heads of their defeated opponents between cobblestones and their own Gallagher hammers until that window of possibility is closed.
This is what I usually see play out in most of the campaigns that I've been in. The PCs fight until all but a few of their enemies are slain, extract information from the survivors, and then murder their captives in cold blood once they have gotten what they wanted. And then they start lopping heads off of the corpses, ripping the tongues and the eyes from the decapitated skulls, and start figuring out the best method to reduce the bodies of their fallen foes to a fine white powder (which can range from a pyre to a disintegrate spell). And if their characters die, so what? As long as it isn't a TPK, their corpses - and more importantly, their precious magical items - will be preserved and can be distributed amongst the party or given to the next character that they roll up (with level appropriate gear and treasure, of course).

Giving characters some positive and negative incentives to avoid these kinds of behavior would kill two birds with one stone. The players don't murder and burn everything they come into contact with, and you don't have to worry about characters engaging in Zerg Rushes to build up an arsenal of magical items. So consider this my vote for the "Mostly Dead" paradigm. That being said, I still think that character power still needs to be de-coupled from the potency of their magical items - there will always be players and DMs that will game the system by acting like complete sociopaths in order to "game the system" - but it's a much better game plan that what we've been using in D&D thus far.

Are we working off of the assumption that living creatures have "souls" and that there is an "afterlife" and actual "gods" and all that jazz?
Last edited by Ganbare Gincun on Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Successive healing should just be less and less effective the more it's used over a finite timespan, either through just healing less or by imposing penalties.

Therefore you can still have the trope of heroes feeling exhausted and spent while trying to stop the bad guy's Virgin Sacrifice Plot while averting the 'We're still at full power, bitches :kindacool:' or 'That guard contingent was more hardcore than we thought and we still have to battle Killfuck Soulshitter and his Dragon Assassins. Let's just go back home. Fuck the princess. :hatin: '
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Lokathor »

so each time you heal someone they take a "heal counter", and you subtract your current heal counter score from the value of each healing, and then you lose 1 heal counter every sunrise?

Well, okay, on the shadowrun/wod scale. on the dnd scale it'd be like 3 points off per healing. same idea.
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Post by Username17 »

Lokathor wrote:so each time you heal someone they take a "heal counter", and you subtract your current heal counter score from the value of each healing, and then you lose 1 heal counter every sunrise?

Well, okay, on the shadowrun/wod scale. on the dnd scale it'd be like 3 points off per healing. same idea.
Something like that. Or something like 4e's Healing Surges. In any case, you'd want to recover healability a lot faster than 1 healing/day. At no time do you want a player to ask to take 2 weeks off to rest so that he can be in adventuring shape again.

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Post by Koumei »

I prefer a system where everyone basically has fast healing 1 - and precisely 1: you will probably go from fight to fight on close to full HP, but recovering even 50 HP when time is running out means you have a 5 minute penalty.

Resting overnight is obviously going to heal all HP (unless you propose having over 4800 HP), so players will never need to take a week off, but they don't need to rest for the night between encounters if being at full HP is that big a deal - they can simply set a few minutes on fire each time. In this method, you wouldn't see someone dropping Heal-like spells, nor would you get characters who have a shtick of "I regenerate MORE".
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Post by Jilocasin »

Ha, not only that, but it would explain why (depending on the dm, although most that I've played with do this) pretty much every monster you ever come across is always at full hp.
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Post by Username17 »

Simply making everyone start every battle at full hit points is pretty much a recipe for hit and run attacks with lots of coup de grace. It's basically the opposite of the stated goal of having people not take the time out of their day to slit each others' throats as they go down.

Attrition has to be possible short of death, or people turn into drive-by murder machines.

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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Don't other forms of attrition just encourage characters to be drive-by injury machines?
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Post by RobbyPants »

What do you mean, CG? That they would do so to conserve their own resources or something?
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

RobbyPants wrote:What do you mean, CG? That they would do so to conserve their own resources or something?
If you want to minimize your own losses, hit-and-run makes sense. If killing is the only way to significantly impact your enemies' resources, it makes sense to focus your efforts on killing. You end up with drive-by murder machines.

However, if you can impact your enemies' resources in other ways, the focus might not be on killing. In actual warfare, the 'ideals' are seriously injuring (but not killing) your enemies, because injured soldiers take up more resources than healthy ones and yet provide nothing. You also want to destroy their food and ammunition, because they probably can't magic up more. In a straw man RPG, none of those matter: you are at full health after every engagement, you can cast hero's feast, and you can shoot unlimited fireballs.
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Mask_De_H
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Wait though, if we work off of "mostly dead", do we apply that to every being under the world, or only the non-mooks? Because having to play Final Fantasy with mooks as your inventory items seems tedious and unnecessary. However, without ransom, you could just glean power from the Named characters: either through taking their stuff, getting information, or even getting their services for a short while. So if you play Pokemon with important characters you can get something useful out of them without ransoms being involved.

On healing: The ever-sinking heal model is nice, but wouldn't that just spur people to blow the first heal against Killfuck Soulshitter and the rest on every little scratch near the end to make up for their deepening deficiency to give themselves meaningful refreshment?
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.
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