Mouse World roleplaying

[Prak]

I don't know how common this used to be (though I can think of a couple examples older than what brought it to mind) but it seems like stories involving foot tall or less protagonists running around the human world and making crazy weapons from everyday objects are getting more common.
(apparently the trope name is Mouse World
Examples would be helpful at this point:

• 9
• Mushroom Men (DS/Wii games)
• Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers
• Mouse Guard
• Smurfs
• Toy story
• Bugs Life
• Antz
• Small Soldiers
• etc.

So yeah, it's a perennial, I guess.

Anyway, my question is, am I the only person to whom this kind of setting appeals to as a game world? And other than a size class system and item creation rules*, what would you need to make a game like this?

*and even then, you could probably handwave it as a game ref discretion thing... "I want to make a paper clip bow, like Gizmo in Gremlins." "Okay, it does X damage, and might do more if you're firing pencils with flaming alcohol soaked cotton balls on them, maybe Y"

[Lago PARANOIA]

I think Dragonball has the most important lesson for building a Mouse World:

Put a hard cap on the expected power level at some point.

While making death rays out of laser pointers is amusing, if it gets to the point where the mice are casually destroying entire buildings it wrecks the setting.

Not just because of Suspension of Disbelief issues (those are minor) but the fact is that one of the key elements of Mouse Worlds is that you have an everyday environment that's supposed to be hostile and forboding when looked at through tiny person eyes. If your tiny inhabitants have no reason to fear casually beating up humans or random cars zooming down the freeway then you no longer have a Mouse World. It's no different than setting the next few adventurers for your halfling party in Cloud Giant city. They still have the luxury of being able to swim in tankards of beer or eat candies the size of their heads, but that's not a Mouse World.

Mouse Guard is good, Mouse Templar is so-so at best precisely because of their approach to the rules. In Mouse Templar, a pack of rats armed with spears can take down and roast an elk. While very badass, it ruined the atmosphere because were were still expected to take things like ant swarms (of regular ants) seriously. In fact, I'd say that Mouse Guard is about as far as you can go with badassery while still keeping the danger of an everyday environment.

That's also exactly why I take contention with Small Soldiers being an example of a Mouse World. Maybe it was for the Gorgonites, but for the military it is not. They're barely inconvenienced at all by the human environment. It's actually amusingly horrifying in parts on behalf of the humans, which is not what you're trying to get from a Mouse World.

I know I'm harping on the subject, but the environment and deconstructing everyday hazards make up a big part of the reason why Mouse Worlds work. It's precisely why Rescue Rangers and Toy Story were so awesome and why Mouse Templar is just a furry comic with odd environments.

[Prak]

Taking after the Kitchen Sink Roleplaying thread, fuck, I'll kill some time listing the standard character types of mouse worlds.

Mouse World Protagonists

• Doll general descriptive term for sentient items of human make, from toys to little bean bag dolls. Range from a few inches tall to about a foot at largest, but larger is certainly possible if plushies are included. Generally have a slightly better knowledge of the Big World, due to being a product of it. Toy Story, 9
• Mouse small, fairly docile rodents, usually anthropomorphized to walk on two legs, may still drop to all fours to run faster. Can climb, generally depicted as living in human like societies. Secret of Nimh, Mouse Guard
• Tiny People Everything from Lilliputians to the Borrowers. They're exactly like normal people, just on a 1/12 scale. The Borrowers, Smurfs
• Fae The fair folk actually get a decent amount of representation in this setting, but usually just a handful of types, like cobbler elves, "fairies" and gnomes/kobolds/goblins. Usually have something special (affinity for crafting or animals, bug wings, etc.) otherwise just Tiny People. Thumbelina, Tinkerbell
• Insects everything from ants, to mantises to spiders, usually kept about the same size, at least generally, which means if you're using ants, especially as the main race, they're going to inexplicably be about the same size as mantises and black widows, but even then stuff like Goliath Bird Eaters are going to not appear or be treated as monsters. A realistically scaled setting would need to use some warm weather species of ants as human analogues to make mantises anything other than the analogue of, say, D&D style storm giants or something. But there's no reason something other than ants couldn't be the main race. Hell, make a story about twenty different species of spiders as different tribes, I don't care. Antz, Bug's Life
• Plant People anthropomorphized, ambulatory sentient plants. Or fungi. Usually it's fairly bizarre, because unlike toys and animals, you have no behaviour or resemblance to work from for their personalities. So you get really arbitrary stuff like bolette mushrooms being peaceful and aminitas being warlike and treacherous (if you were basing it on anything at all, aminitas would be spiritual, I think.) But for a blank canvas, where you get to make those kind of decisions without baggage, it's good. Mushroom Men

[Prak]

power levels

That's actually a really good point, but a couple thoughts.

I don't know how many rats comprised the mentioned pack, but I could see an army of human level intelligence rats with spears taking down an elk, it's a matter of numbers and mindset. And Rats definitely have the mind set, and could have the numbers

Similarly for Small Soldiers, the Gorgons had a tough time of it, because they're fairly peaceful, but the Military had the mindset to say "Fuck it, we're taking everyone on, and we're going to use their own shit." They actually didn't really do anything that Mouse World setting ferrets couldn't do... (ok, except for the whole cyborging barbie expys thing, but that was pure rule of cool)

Antagonists
[*]Evil analogue of Protagonists very common, rats for mice, aggressive/villainous counter part toys for dolls, goblins for cobbler elves, etc.
[*]Bugs also extremely common. Ant swarms, giant beetles, etc. Usually either larger than the protagonist or just very aggressive and numerous. Alternatively something that would be dangerous to the protagonists even if they weren't intelligent/animate, like termites if your protagonists are made of wood, or spiders if they're ants.
[*]Animals Pretty much any creature that's bigger than the protagonist, occasionally things the same size. Rabbits attacking vegetable matter protagonists, Birds carrying them off, etc.
[*]People whether careless, self absorbed, or actively malicious, people are a somewhat common enemy of the Mouse World Protagonist. Ants may be stepped on, mice might have the exterminator called on them, and maybe the Dolls aren't quite quick enough on pretending to be lifeless one time, and their human sees them fucking. Or taking tea, whatever.[/list]

[Prak]

Special Note Characters
Some character types can play for either team, either making the decision personally within the story, or being decided upon as the focus for a story.
Sometimes the "author" wants something just slightly different from a standard protagonist, so they use rats because they like the idea of mice, but want something less innocent, or they use spiders because ants aren't predatory enough (and the ones that are live in a different area of the world), or they decide to use Aggressive/Villain toys because they want something like the obscene love child of Toy Story and Sin City*.
Usually when this is done, it's fairly similar to using a normal protagonist type, but the tone is something that wouldn't generally be done with them.



*this has the potential for being awesome... I could just see a villain action figure bursting through a cardboard door, knocking a bunch of army men down steps because he knows they'll pin the murder of his barbie hooker on him and he has to find out who actually killed her.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I don't know how many rats comprised the mentioned pack, but I could see an army of human level intelligence rats with spears taking down an elk, it's a matter of numbers and mindset. And Rats definitely have the mind set, and could have the numbers

Similarly for Small Soldiers, the Gorgons had a tough time of it, because they're fairly peaceful, but the Military had the mindset to say "Fuck it, we're taking everyone on, and we're going to use their own shit." They actually didn't really do anything that Mouse World setting ferrets couldn't do... (ok, except for the whole cyborging barbie expys thing, but that was pure rule of cool)

I didn't say that it wasn't cool or that it's impossible to suspend your disbelief, I said that it completely destroyed the feel of the setting. If you as a denizen of Mouse Society can stand on relatively equal footing with a human in your universe then the world loses its majesty and sense of danger. Yes, you could just have the protagonists operate in, say, Hellsmouth to compensate for their badassery but then the story becomes less about 'Tiny critters surviving in a human world' as 'non-human critters muscling through hostile worlds with their badassery'.

[Prak]

well, that's true, I guess. And while some badassitude should certainly exist, it needs to be... true to scale, I guess. In a "Standard" Mouse World setting, a human should probably be equal in challenge to a gargantuan creature in standard D&D, so, a trex, or a dire elephant, I guess. Which means that, if you want your game to range between low level being, say, Toy Story, or Mouse Guard, then taking down a human, on your own, is going to be around level 13, and then taking down, say, an actual trained soldier is probably an end game proposition.

I have to admit, I like the idea of the game being "Tiny Creatures Surviving in a human world" at low to mid level, and high level being "Non-Human critters muscling through hostile worlds with their badassery".

at the same time, MW characters, whether low or high level should pull off feats that are "badass for their size" not "badass for anyone short of Chuck Norris, for whom it'd be a walk in the park."

[A Man In Black]

I have to admit, I like the idea of the game being "Tiny Creatures Surviving in a human world" at low to mid level, and high level being "Non-Human critters muscling through hostile worlds with their badassery".

You don't need a power cap, just a genre limit. I don't see any reason to not have mouse heroes fighting a crocodile at high power levels, but once they're fighting people they're just very small people and not part of a different world.

[Prak]

well, fighting people is actually somewhat in genre, witness the rats topling the health inspector in Ratatouille, or the toys scaring the shit out of Sid in Toy Story. Hell, even the lilliputians in Gulliver's Travels.

and even without those examples, players are going to want to do it. maybe not all, but enough that it should be accounted for.

you know, like D&D and smacking gods around...

[Prak]

Item Crafting

I'm thinking that item crafting will have a bunch of categories of stuff you can make, with required parts, optional or conditional parts, different damage types and example weapons. So there'll be entries like:

Fire Bomb
Damage Type: Fire, explosive
Required Parts: Explosive Chemical, Container, Stopper, Fuse
Examples: Ping Pong Bomb (Gasoline, Ping Pong Ball, Gum, Candle Wick)

Sword
Damage Type: Slashing
Required Parts: Wedge
Optional/Conditional Parts: Handle/Wrapping
Examples:Cocktail Sword (Cocktail Sword), Junk Sword (Straight Edge Razor, Leather Strap)

Character Sheets will probably have a page devoted to "Scav" (to use Mushroom Men's term) with a few different item charts for different types, like Chemicals (gasoline, ammonia) which will have a column for type (flammable, Corrosive, etc.); Ready-Mades (items that can function as weapons without crafting, like Cocktail Swords and Pencils) that will have columns for Type (blunt, wedge, point) and Damage; Containers with a column for capacity (single, double, etc. relative to game scale. a thimble may be single for mice, but half for dolls, while a ping pong ball might be double for mice and single for dolls) and then probably a table for miscellany. Each table will of course have a column for quantity.

Equipping will actually probably be pretty easy, since the difficulties are accessibility and crafting, not getting materials. I mean... pencils come in boxes of like 25... You could probably equip your whole party and the Big Ones won't even notice.

[Prak]

What's the story type for this kind of setting? Usually, I mean. Is it generally high adventure? Social Satire? what? If it's high adventure, this could probably just be a campaign setting for d20, with a variety of individual campaigns, so a chapter for Mice in the Big World, another for Plant People, a third for Dolls, etc.

[mean_liar]

I think this was pointed out by Lago - the genre's strength comes from taking what would ordinarily be some small-time event (going to get medicine from the local herbalist seems to be popular) and then blowing it out of proportion because you're not human and the world is a fucking scary place if you're tiny. It's no longer "go kill the dragon menacing us" or even "go kill the cat", since if you kill the cat then you've just undermined the genre's scariness - it's more, "beg the Wise Owl to tell you how to live through the coming hurricane even though you've just been evicted from your warren".

The Secret of NIMH comes to mind, obviously, since I'm mining the shit out of it for the examples I just gave.

[Prak]

Hmm... then our problem seems to be that my primary experience with the setting is 9, Mushroom Men, Toy Story, and Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers, where there is substantially more badassery and high adventure. I mean, I never read Redwall, or Mouse Guard (though I started, I just didn't finish...) nor have I seen or read anything Nimh.

Wait... *looks at protagonists of everything just mentioned*
Oh.

Ok, it seems that when the protagonists are mice, yeah, the world's a fucking scary place, and while they do get some badass moments (especially in Mouse Guard) it's kind of nothing compared to the antics of dolls and plant people. ...or chipmunks, apparently...

I mean, 9 is totally an After the End high adventure story, Mushroom Men is high adventure in a vaguely defined timeline, and there is, I have to admit, some seriously awesome shit in C&DRR...

I mean, hell, one of the bosses in the DS Mushroom Men game is a rabbit, and it's a fucking tough fight, but you're totally expected to be able to pull it off, on your own. In the Wii game the first boss is a mole. That may not seem like much, but remember, you're an ambulatory fungus.

[Username17]

Rescue Rangers are Disney Cartoon Characters, which means that they shift back and forth between being essentially man-sized and animal size at random intervals with no explanation. When they run around in a weird environment like an ancient castle full of ghosts, things are basically scaled for them. There is like armor they can wear and shit. So only some Chip n' Dale adventures even compete for discussion of Mouseworld.

The rest of the time it's like Pokemon or Tom & Jerry. Even the nominally small characters are interacting on the same level as the big characters.

-Username17

[Thymos]

Rescue Rangers are Disney Cartoon Characters, which means that they shift back and forth between being essentially man-sized and animal size at random intervals with no explanation. When they run around in a weird environment like an ancient castle full of ghosts, things are basically scaled for them. There is like armor they can wear and shit. So only some Chip n' Dale adventures even compete for discussion of Mouseworld.

You know though, this sounds like a good idea. It enables players to take a break from being tiny for almost no cost.

[Username17]

If people can take a break from being tiny, then there's no context as to whether you should be afraid or contemptuous of any particular thing. It's like if the DM assigned you a level once combat music actually started. Before the combat music starts, you have no clues available as to whether a particular enemy is worth hiding from or not.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Rescue Rangers are Disney Cartoon Characters, which means that they shift back and forth between being essentially man-sized and animal size at random intervals with no explanation. When they run around in a weird environment like an ancient castle full of ghosts, things are basically scaled for them. There is like armor they can wear and shit. So only some Chip n' Dale adventures even compete for discussion of Mouseworld.

You'll note that the better Rescue Ranger episodes and (especially) fanfiction actually take the idea of the Mouse World to heart and deconstruct environmental elements that we take for granted. The pilot episode, Adventures in Squirrelsitting, was concentrated awesome because it took a mildly scary scenario (fight in a factory) and turned it into a death-filled obstacle course.

By contrast, Professor Nimnul was an awful villain because he routinely downgraded challenges that would normally be scary or exciting. If you see an episode of rodents taking down a human mad scientist with robot bulldogs with a few tools and nominal brainpower you just aren't going to be convinced of the scariness when a future episode is 'survive a thunderstorm'.

[Prak]

Rescue Rangers are Disney Cartoon Characters, which means that they shift back and forth between being essentially man-sized and animal size at random intervals with no explanation. When they run around in a weird environment like an ancient castle full of ghosts, things are basically scaled for them. There is like armor they can wear and shit. So only some Chip n' Dale adventures even compete for discussion of Mouseworld.

You'll note that the better Rescue Ranger episodes and (especially) fanfiction actually take the idea of the Mouse World to heart and deconstruct environmental elements that we take for granted. The pilot episode, Adventures in Squirrelsitting, was concentrated awesome because it took a mildly scary scenario (fight in a factory) and turned it into a death-filled obstacle course.

By contrast, Professor Nimnul was an awful villain because he routinely downgraded challenges that would normally be scary or exciting. If you see an episode of rodents taking down a human mad scientist with robot bulldogs with a few tools and nominal brainpower you just aren't going to be convinced of the scariness when a future episode is 'survive a thunderstorm'.

Oh, totally. MW characters taking down a human should involve cunning and luck, not be a routine thing because you have a fucking robot bulldog.

But on the other hand... if you're badass enough to take down anything significantly poisonous, say anything from a black widow or brown recluse, to a cobra or rattlesnake, and then harvest the venom, and then apply it to your MW-craft crossbow's bolts... suddenly Mr. Atkinson, who owns the house your den is in and wants to exterminate your family isn't that big a challenge...

[souran]

Mouse Guard is good, Mouse Templar is so-so at best precisely because of their approach to the rules. In Mouse Templar, a pack of rats armed with spears can take down and roast an elk.

What the hell is Mouse Templar? Does it have anything to do with mouse guard?

@ O.P. Any setting can be interesting for a while. I doubt I would have much interest right now in playing a mouse or other vermin pc but if redwall was your harry potter I could see the attraction.

Also, does anybody have a review of "the buring wheel rpg." What is good and what is fail about it?

[Prak]

Yes, I believe Mouse Templar is related to Mouse Guard.

there should be a review of Burning Wheel on the Brilliant Gameologists podcast ( www.brilliantgameologists.com ) the people actually love it, and repeatedly suck it's dick, but their reviews tend to be pretty fair, so you should be able to get a pretty good idea of what it's like.

[souran]

Yes, I believe Mouse Templar is related to Mouse Guard.

Interesting. I have just never heard of it at all.

there should be a review of Burning Wheel on the Brilliant Gameologists podcast ( www.brilliantgameologists.com ) the people actually love it, and repeatedly suck it's dick, but their reviews tend to be pretty fair, so you should be able to get a pretty good idea of what it's like.

People that lay/use burning wheel at all all seem to love it. Its not a widely available system so you have to have a desire to use it to even play it.

However, I was hoping for a denners review that would really hammer what works and what doesn't.

Similarly I hope somebody will soon be able to tell us if the dragon age rpg is anything special or is just really broken....

[Username17]

Mouse Templar is a totally different comic book about mice with swords written by a totally different dude. Never read it.

I think the best short description of Burning Wheel is:
"It's a cool game, set firmly in a reductionist neo-tolkien/warhammer/warcraft gameworld."

-Username17

[Prak]

Mouse Templar is a totally different comic book about mice with swords written by a totally different dude. Never read it.

Ah, nevermind then.

I think the best short description of Burning Wheel is:
"It's a cool game, set firmly in a reductionist neo-tolkien/warhammer/warcraft gameworld."

-Username17

My glimpse at the Mouse Guard RPG told me it seemed promising.

[PoliteNewb]

Oh, totally. MW characters taking down a human should involve cunning and luck, not be a routine thing because you have a fucking robot bulldog.

But on the other hand... if you're badass enough to take down anything significantly poisonous, say anything from a black widow or brown recluse, to a cobra or rattlesnake, and then harvest the venom, and then apply it to your MW-craft crossbow's bolts... suddenly Mr. Atkinson, who owns the house your den is in and wants to exterminate your family isn't that big a challenge...

To expound on ML's comment, just as a major genre strength is "the ordinary is extraordinary", a major genre convention is the fact that if YOU are an exceptional tiny character (for instance, an intelligent rat a la NIMH, or a faerie, or what have you), you have to keep that secret from the big peoples. And a major reason is that it is normally a fact that your tiny society cannot bring as much total force to bear as normal human society, regardless of the amount of personal force you and your immediate associates can bring to bear.

So even if you CAN poison Mr. Atkinson, you probably don't WANT to...because when they find the tiny blowgun darts in his jugular, they're going to hunt you down like the rats you may very well be. Dealing with problems without being obvious about it is a fairly common trope in mouse world scenarios.

[Prak]

fair point, I was merely demonstrating the kind of power such a character could bring to bear, and the corpse could be taken care of as well. Though honestly I prefer the "make him think he had a nightmare but scare him shitless" scenario, I think.