The Gaming Den

Hello Denners!

Here with hat in hand hoping for a little assistance. It appears that I'll be playing a 4e Living Forgotten Realms game "The Prospect", levels 1-4 (likely higher in the future) on somewhat short notice. Don't know anything about 4e beyond what I've gleamed from reading here at The Den; I’m wondering what you might suggest as a fun class to play.

Typically, I tend to play "toolbox" type characters. Beguilers, wizards with a 1 level rogue splash, druids, and the odd cleric...characters who are versatile, useful in multiple situations and tactical at both the local and encounter level.

I've been lurking and reading up on the threads regarding the Gnome Illusionist, Kallashtar Laser Cleric and Elf Beastmaster Archer Ranger. Based on the Living FR setting and my prefs would you recommend any class in particular for fun? Any hints on how would you build them for this level 1-4 session? A defined build would be awesome.

RPGA starting Character Rule Basics:
Start at level 1, attributes are by PHB Method 1 or 2; Resources: 100gp
Player Resources that are legal for use:
PHB Series, FR Series (except spellscarred), Power Series, Minis, Dragon Annuals, Dragon Mag (upon compiled release), EbPG (except dragonmarks), Planar (except paragon paths)

Links to threads Lurked:
4e Builds Talk http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50244
4e Cleric Guidance http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50514
4e Gnome Illusionist http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=122456
4e Melee/Rangers http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50577
4e Divine Power Review http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50213

Sorry about the heavy post, and a pre thank you very much for your help!

-Rathe

I warn you ahead of time, that Gnome Illusionists, while powerful, are pretty pathetic as far as being "interesting." When you bust loose with an Illusion power, you don't do anything. All that cool crazy shit that K was talking about that you can do with silent image just does not happen in 4e.

Your basic attack does a d6+Int Modifier Psychic damage and causes the target to have a -2 penalty on their attack rolls until the end of your next turn. It's an "illusion" so your Gnome Illusionist deal kicks in to give a bonus to attack and damage, and it targets Will Defense instead of AC. That makes it good.

-Username17

As a low-level D&D character, you're not going to have a lot of options or things in your toolbox. So completely forget that noise.

If you're ending the game at level 4, a half-orc brutal scoundrel rogue can get a lot of mileage. Assuming you don't have Martial Power 2, here's what your character will look like:

Half-Orc Brutal Scoundrel Rogue
Skills: Whatever

1: Backstabber (Retrained to Versatile Duelist at level 2, lets you make sneak attacks and use rogue powers with one-handed heavy blades)
2: Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword. Wield the bastard sword in two hands. Your basic attacks w/ sneak attack and magic spoon deal 1d10+7+2d6 damage (average 19.5). Don't worry about the +1 to attack you'd get over a dagger, at these low levels the damage bonus is more important.
4: Weapon Focus or Weapon Expertise: Heavy Blades

Powers:
At-Will: Piercing Strike, Deft Strike
Enc 1: King's Castle
Daily 1: Blinding Barrage or Duelist's Prowess.
Utility 2: Sneak in the Attack if your DM follows the liberal interpretation, otherwise Adaptable Flanker
Enc 3: Low Slash

The first bit of spoon you should grab is a Frost Bastard Sword. This way you can stick a Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold into it. If too many people have this spoon then you can get a Sunblade + Siberys Shard of Radiance if you have the extra cash. The rest, eh, get armor.

If it's a new GM, and one that might 'shut down' Lago's prodigious dumpster diving skills, go with basic fighter. "Boundless Endurance" is essentially an "I win" button at low levels (important if the GM is new enough to mess up encounter balance), and the fighter's mark/combat challenge really screws over a GM that doesn't constantly work to deal with it. Toss in excessive surges and large hit points, and you'll get to laugh as the rogues get creamed at low levels (where their low surges can sometimes be a problem).

For race, half-orc has alot going for it, but dragonborn are just as good, with a breath attack that really 'combos' with the fighter's mark in a silly way (cold damage, of course, too much in the game has fire resistance, and cold can be cheesed for bonus benefits later on).

Go with the Kalashtar Cleric, because that will be good no matter what the ranged/melee mix of your party is. Astral Seal and Sacred Flame are both good, and Moment of Glory basically makes your group nigh-unkillable for one encounter/day.

Kallashtar Laser Cleric

If they haven't yet errata'ed Astral Seal into uselessness, this would be my vote.

Except at low levels, I'm not sure that the +2 cha from Kalllashtar is as good as the extra feat from Human.

Both take implement expertise as their first feat.
Both take Power of Life as their second feat.
Both probably take Meloras Tide as their third feat since it allows out-of-combat surgeless self-healing.
And the human likely takes Healer's Implement as their forth level feat, which should put them at least on par with the Kalashtar for Astral Seal healing. (assuming +1 implement, which is a question in the RPGA)

the build is max wis
then cha
then con
then you just don't care

You take the Healer's Mercy Option from Divine Power, because Turn Undead only comes up like once every five levels IMX (it might be more in published/RPGA adventures) But generally you don't care, because you should probably blow your Channel Divinity on that +1 to hit your first attack every encounter - if your Astral Seals and Healing Words aren't keeping the party functional, the game is rigged against you anyways.

Powers:
At Wills: Astral Seal, Sacred Flame, (if human Lance of Faith)
Encounters: 1st level either Bane or Exacting Utterance,
3rd level: Hymn of Resurgence unless you have another Cleric or a Paladin in the group - in that case, Sacred Flame alone may be good enough for save granting and you can maybe think about the area-dazing Astral Flare instead.
Utility: Holy Vestments (or if you go Kalashtar and expect many skill challenges then Divine Skill)
Daily: Moment of Glory (or if you prefer getting your astral seal number really high to making your whole group invulnerable, then Beacon of Hope).
If the game somehow goes to level 5, you take Consecrated Ground, provided that your whole group knows to stay in it for the effective invulnerability and the DM doesn't run encounters where mobility matters.

your gear is pretty much the biggest raw bonus holy symbol you can get , chainmail and anything that adds to healing (most of which is out of level for this game)

Thank you all for the help.

A little saddened that the character will be that limited at low level, but still a game is a game.

As I have absolutely no idea what anyone else will be playing, it looks like I'll prep a Laser Cleric and a Fighty Type and see what the party mix is.

Thanks again!

Rathe wrote:Thank you all for the help.

A little saddened that the character will be that limited at low level, but still a game is a game.

As I have absolutely no idea what anyone else will be playing, it looks like I'll prep a Laser Cleric and a Fighty Type and see what the party mix is.

Thanks again!

It will b extremely limited at all levels. Even when you get to crazy high level and you're an epic level character who is raping the encounter system because you played one of the things that is good (such as Shifter Drrzt Ranger, Gnome Illusion Orbizard, or Healing Laser Cleric), you'll still spend almost all of your time spamming the same sad tactics you used at level 1.

Sure, at level 9 your Gnome Illusionist get to use "Visions of Ruin" once a day, which is pretty bad ass, in that it makes a 3x3 area that your targets cannot leave until they roll a "you can leave now" result on a d20 at the end of their turn, while your team laughs at them and hits them with ranged attacks. But that's really it. And your Cleric gets to use "Consecrated Ground" that turns on actual invulnerability for your whole party for one encounter, once per day. And so on.

But your turn to turn activities will always be the same. As encounters last more rounds at higher levels, you will find that a Gnome casts more Illusionary Ambushes per fight at high level than low level. A Cleric similarly casts Astral Seal more in a high level fight than a low level fight. If you're one of the classes with the [Awesome] tag, you'll be able to hit the "I Win" button a couple of times a day with your daily powers at high levels. But your round to round activities will not change as you level. The two "at will" powers you get at 1st level are still the only ones you get at 11th level and at 21st level.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:But your turn to turn activities will always be the same. As encounters last more rounds at higher levels, you will find that a Gnome casts more Illusionary Ambushes per fight at high level than low level. A Cleric similarly casts Astral Seal more in a high level fight than a low level fight. If you're one of the classes with the [Awesome] tag, you'll be able to hit the "I Win" button a couple of times a day with your daily powers at high levels. But your round to round activities will not change as you level. The two "at will" powers you get at 1st level are still the only ones you get at 11th level and at 21st level.

If you're one of the builds that bolts on extra stuff to your at-wills, this isn't entirely true. Thunderglaive/thunderspear builds (of which there are many variations) keep bolting new and (by 4e standards) interesting new tricks onto one or both at-wills. You're still using the same powers, but they develop slowly as you level up.

These builds are boring for a different reason, though. All the focus on one attack means that you're necessarily going to be spamming that one attack every fight. A thunderglaive wizard barely even touches his encounter powers, and only uses the "I win the fight lol" dailies. It's amusing in a theoretical character design way but at the table it's even less interesting than playing an MMO DPSer.

A Man In Black wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:But your turn to turn activities will always be the same. As encounters last more rounds at higher levels, you will find that a Gnome casts more Illusionary Ambushes per fight at high level than low level. A Cleric similarly casts Astral Seal more in a high level fight than a low level fight. If you're one of the classes with the [Awesome] tag, you'll be able to hit the "I Win" button a couple of times a day with your daily powers at high levels. But your round to round activities will not change as you level. The two "at will" powers you get at 1st level are still the only ones you get at 11th level and at 21st level.

If you're one of the builds that bolts on extra stuff to your at-wills, this isn't entirely true. Thunderglaive/thunderspear builds (of which there are many variations) keep bolting new and (by 4e standards) interesting new tricks onto one or both at-wills. You're still using the same powers, but they develop slowly as you level up.

These builds are boring for a different reason, though. All the focus on one attack means that you're necessarily going to be spamming that one attack every fight. A thunderglaive wizard barely even touches his encounter powers, and only uses the "I win the fight lol" dailies. It's amusing in a theoretical character design way but at the table it's even less interesting than playing an MMO DPSer.

Aren't you saying the exact same thing as Frank? I.e. it's boring because you're doing the same thing round after round after round.

hogarth wrote:Aren't you saying the exact same thing as Frank? I.e. it's boring because you're doing the same thing round after round after round.

Most builds are boring over the course of your career, because you're constantly going back to your level 1 abilities. They're less boring round-to-round, because you're at least going to use your encounters and a daily or two before falling back to the spam attacks.

Some builds focus on cheesing out a single power or subset of powers. Those are more interesting over the career, since while you're still using Thunderwave, Thunderwave keeps getting new stuff added to it as you level. On the other hand, it's less interesting round-to-round, since your plan is always "I thunderwave it!"

hogarth wrote:Aren't you saying the exact same thing as Frank? I.e. it's boring because you're doing the same thing round after round after round.

There's a noticeable difference actually. Although yeah, it's pretty boring in either case.

The Ranger so standard that he doesn't even seem to have a cute name is basically going to use Twin Strike. A lot. As he rises in level, he will gain various minor action attacks that will mix up the first round (two if he also pops a Daily) at first level, and the first four rounds (five if he pops a Daily) at Epic level. But basically, he's going to be using Twin Strike a lot and it's not going to be very different.

As a Gnome Illusionist, you're looking at a pretty similar life path. You have two separate At-Wills that you swap between, and you're going to be using your Encounters every battle (Grasping Shadows is basically like using Cloud of Daggers and Ray of Frost at the same time), but basically you're going to be using Illusionary Ambush. A lot.

The San Diego Supercharger and the Thunderglaive Swordmage are different though. Substantially so. As a Thunderglaive Swordsman your basic maneuver changes and improves over time. Level to level you are not just doing the same thing over and over again. But battle to battle, it's even worse. You only use Encounter powers to heal yourself, in a 9 round battle it is extremely likely that you will use your current version of Swordburst nine times. San Diego Supercharger is the same deal, but with a charging Righteous Brand.

So it's a question of which bores you more: Doing the same thing for the last six rounds of every battle your whole life? Or doing the same thing for all nine rounds of every battle, but changing that thing between levels?

-Username17