Clarification on Two-weapon fighting.

[Sunwitch]

Say I have a hand crossbow in my main hand, and a longsword in my off-hand, and I have TWF (the Tome one, duh) and Rapid Shot. I Rapid shot with my hand crossbow to get an extra attack. Since I got an extra attack with my hand crossbow, I'll be getting an extra attack with the sword too, right?

[koz]

You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

When you make an attack or full attack, you may make a number of attacks with your off-hand weapon equal to the number of attacks you are afforded with your primary weapon.

While you would have to use a full-round action to do this, according to the RAW, yes, you would get an extra sword attack. While I consider this kinda weird, that's what happens when you mix your metaphors by using Tome feats together with non-Tome ones.

[Sunwitch]

Alright, that's what I thought. Considering there's no Tome version of Rapid Shot to my knowledge, I guess this is just the way it is for now. I don't see it as game breaking in any real way, since the sword attacks take the -2 as well, but it's still pretty damn weird. Oh well.

[Red_Rob]

Given that most of the Core Feats and quite a few from the splatbooks were incorporated into the [Combat] feats, is there a game balance reason that the Rapid Shot - Manyshot chain was not converted? Looking at Two Weapon Fighting it's apparent that multiple attacks aren't seen as a problem, so was there some other reason that multiple ranged attacks was seen as undesirable?

[Lokathor]

The +1, +6, and +16 abilities of the blitz feat work with ranged attacks, and the +16 ability simulates Manyshot. Point Blank Shot has a "whirlwind" style option at +16. It seems that only Rapid Shot itself isn't available. Maybe they just don't like the "flurry" style effect as much? Or you could just take Rapid Shot and bulk it up into a Combat feat.

[Judging__Eagle]

Rapid Shot was intentionally not turned into a feat, because it's a stupid feat that adds nothing to the game that doesn't already exist.

[Red_Rob]

Could you elaborate a little? I have a player who wants to take this Feat and I'd like to know if its likely to cause a problem.

Do you mean you can already do a Full attack to get more attacks? Before lvl 6 I can't see any way for a bow user to get additional attacks per round

[CatharzGodfoot]

You can take any 3.5e feat you like in a Tome campaign (subject to any other house rules, of course). That's pretty much the biggest selling point of the series. The worst outcome is that you'll end up with a crappy feat like Weapon Focus rather than something kickass like Combat School.

So yeah, that means that you can take Rapid Shot. And by the wording of Two Weapon Fighting, you could use a ranged weapon as your primary attack to get an additional melee (or ranged) offhand attack. The basic ability of TWFing is pretty much the exact wording of Epic Two-Weapon Fighting from the D&D Joke Book.

Much like with Blitz, I might house rule my house rules (they're fucking house rules, do what you want with them). Tome TWFing + PBS + core Rapid Shot is hardcore, but I doubt it's actually borkn.

I still with Frank and K were a little more forthcoming with errata for 'obvious' things.

[Archmage]

If I'm not mistaken, there's generally distaste for flurry-type abilities because having to make extra attack rolls slows down the game. Frank has noted before that he's of the opinion that TWF should probably just give a to-hit bonus, but I'm not sure if that's the general consensus around here.

I think a flurry-type ability for bows is kind of logical, though, since you can't actually TWF bows and the -2 penalty for an extra attack as part of your routine is exactly the same as you'd get from appropriate use of TWF.

Also, how are you using rapid shot with a hand crossbow? You can't even full attack with a hand crossbow unless you have some way to reload it as a free action (which you can do with rapid reload, but you still need a hand free, and you don't have one if you've got a short sword in the other hand).

[Crissa]

That sounds like a nice, swashbuckling thing to do, honestly.

-Crissa

[Orion]

Rapid shot is a bad thing because it's such a no-brainer. There's almost no situation you wouldn't use it, it's so powerful every archer has to take it, and it incentives stationary full attacks which make the game boring.

Furthermore, ranged attacks in Races of War are already doing just fine themselves. Rapid Shot was necessary in 3.5 to correct for the crushing inferiority of ranged attacks over melee. There just wasn't any way to get enough damage bonuses on your bows to stack up against a greatsword, and therefore there wasn't enough damage for bows to make rapid shot problematic.

Tome, however, gives substantial to hit and damage bonuses to PBS, introduces Blitz and Knight's Challenge as damage boosters, Monk Styles for ranged status infliction, and more. Rapid Shot is unnecessary and detrimental to the Tome environment.

[Lokathor]

Also, how are you using rapid shot with a hand crossbow? You can't even full attack with a hand crossbow unless you have some way to reload it as a free action (which you can do with rapid reload, but you still need a hand free, and you don't have one if you've got a short sword in the other hand).

Self-Loading is a +1 magic ability.

[schpeelah]

Or you can take a week off to learn how to use the Repeating Crossbow.

[kjdavies]

Or you can take a week off to learn how to use the Repeating Crossbow.

Still needs two hands. The ones I've seen are lever-action to reload, not revolvers.

Keith

[kjdavies]

Rapid shot is a bad thing because it's such a no-brainer. There's almost no situation you wouldn't use it, it's so powerful every archer has to take it, and it incentives stationary full attacks which make the game boring.

Furthermore, ranged attacks in Races of War are already doing just fine themselves. Rapid Shot was necessary in 3.5 to correct for the crushing inferiority of ranged attacks over melee. There just wasn't any way to get enough damage bonuses on your bows to stack up against a greatsword, and therefore there wasn't enough damage for bows to make rapid shot problematic.

There's a problem with someone getting slammed inna face with a four-pound chunk of edged (but not very sharp) steel is likely to be injured more than someone poked with a four-ounce sharpened stick? If I had to pick between those two options, I think I know which I'd prefer.

Add in that the guy with the greatsword has to get within reach of the guy he's trying to disassemble, rather than hang back with the horses and the little children and whatnot, I saw no reason why Rapid Shot was needed for balance (though that may have been the stated purpose).

The archer may have felt small in the pants because he usually[1] did a little less damage per round than the guy with the balls to wade in and dish it out. He gets to hang back where it's safe, it seems a reasonable trade. Giving him damage dealing capacity close to -- or better, I've seen it -- the bastard with the fuckoff big sword swings things the other way.

At least in my experience; I haven't found many players willing to run PCs that wade in and deal death at close range if staying back and doing as much damage is an option.

[1] crits brought things a fair bit closer, at least until Str bonuses got really big


Keith

[angelfromanotherpin]

There's a problem with someone getting slammed inna face with a four-pound chunk of edged (but not very sharp) steel is likely to be injured more than someone poked with a four-ounce sharpened stick? If I had to pick between those two options, I think I know which I'd prefer.

How about a quarter-ounce of dull soft lead, genius? Would you prefer that?

Mass x Velocity squared; the velocity part counts for more. In pre-industrial society, high-velocity sharpened sticks killed more armored men than four-pound chunks of steel ever did.

[Red_Rob]

I guess PBS does give a nice damage boost with its +1 ability. I was under the impression the +1 ability of Blitz was only supposed to work with Melee attacks, as the downside isn't a downside for ranged attacks and the +1 of PBS already does this. Won't it be a bit powerful to be able to stack PBS and Blitz?

Is there a similar reason that Spirited Charge doesn't have a Tome analogue? The +D6 damage from Blitz is kinda in the same vein but it doesn't enable Ubercharger builds like Spirited Charge.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I guess PBS does give a nice damage boost with its +1 ability. I was under the impression the +1 ability of Blitz was only supposed to work with Melee attacks, as the downside isn't a downside for ranged attacks and the +1 of PBS already does this. Won't it be a bit powerful to be able to stack PBS and Blitz?

That's the reasonable interpretation of the rules, but it's not the only (or possibly even intended) one.

[kjdavies]

There's a problem with someone getting slammed inna face with a four-pound chunk of edged (but not very sharp) steel is likely to be injured more than someone poked with a four-ounce sharpened stick? If I had to pick between those two options, I think I know which I'd prefer.

How about a quarter-ounce of dull soft lead, genius? Would you prefer that?

Honestly? Probably the bullet. Unless it hits something critical, it's relatively unlikely to kill me. There's all sorts of places I could be shot without being killed. It'll hurt, but being hit at all solidly by a greatsword would probably fuck me up something fierce.

Mass x Velocity squared; the velocity part counts for more. In pre-industrial society, high-velocity sharpened sticks killed more armored men than four-pound chunks of steel ever did.

Sure, if you can drop someone at a distance of course it's better and more effective and safer. That's why it's preferred. I would expect that as this became effective (bows got good enough) that it would come to outnumber the sword-inna-face kills. I don't see that this is necessarily because the bows do more damage per unit time (all else being equal), but that the bows get to do damage long before swords can be brought into play.


Keith

[Crissa]

Strangely, humans are filled with critical parts.

-Crissa

[kjdavies]

Strangely, humans are filled with critical parts.

-Crissa

This is true. However, I understand that it's relatively difficult for a bullet to hit them because of the size of the wound channel (though with modern weapons it's easy to get a *lot* of wound channels, and with unmodern weapons you're unlikely to have access to good medical care).

Yes, a bullet can go right through your heart and kill you. A sword going into the chest at all is likely to do the same thing. Shoot someone in the arm he's got some problems; smash him with a heavy sword and he's likely to have very much worse problems. A bullet *might* break a bone, a heavy sword almost certainly will, or skid down the bone and try to peel some muscle off.

I'm not saying bows and arrows (or guns and bullets) aren't dangerous. They are in the long run even more dangerous than the heavy melee weapons because they can be used at range, without inviting the heavy attacks back (and you can usually get at least partial cover against the return fire).

However, I think 3.5 (even without Rapid Shot) has a decent model. The big melee weapons hit hard and tend to do some biggish damage (and may have more frequent crits, in the case of swords), while the ranged weapons do lower base damage but have a better critical modifier. They *can* do comparable damage, but the ranged guy hiding behind the tree doesn't need to be able to hit as hard each round -- unless the fight starts at immediate range, he gets to attack on more rounds anyway while the tank gets to the fight.

Even without Rapid Shot, 3.5 suits my sense of reality. With Rapid Shot, the tank gets the pleasure of feeling small in the pants because he's slower, pays more for his gear to get his AC up (heavy armor precludes Dex bonus, archer-dude gets Dex to attack *and* AC... including touch attacks, which the tank doesn't get to apply his armor to), and generally does comparable damage. In the event he finds someone to play with, he's probably going to be outnumbered in his position and get gangraped by the enemy because he's all by himself. And from a gamist perspective he deserves it because he chose a horribly suboptimal build (he should have pumped Dex and gotten a bow instead... and this leaves out the Int-or-Cha-and-cast-spells option which is an even better-known path to success).

Keith