The Gaming Den

I intend to ban prepared casting for my campaign.
What would be the spells known progression for the paladin and ranger?
Also what class features would they have to trade in to have the same amount of spells per day/known as a bard?

The beguiler/dread necromancer style of casting works much better than the sorcerer style. It's not so much the exact number so much as having several different viable choices without having one choice that overshadows the rest.

Count Geiger wrote: What would be the spells known progression for the paladin and ranger?
Also what class features would they have to trade in to have the same amount of spells per day/known as a bard?

No class feature loss.

Here, take a gander at this:

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Kantian_ ... e_Class%29

Paladin with Charisma-based spontaneous casting and Bard spells-per-day and it's pretty good.

The Paladin and Ranger would NOT have to trade in features. They could really GET features, and the casting buff.

Although Rangers shouldn't have spells. Really, a Ranger is a fighter who lives out in the woods and probably owns a bow.

@Maxus
Thanks

Edited just a bit, but don't want to ninja.

Anyways, one of these days I'm going to make up a few alternative features for the Tome Fighter and call it the Ranger and leave it at that for my games...

I know rangers are basically combat druids but I like them almost as they are. What spells would you put on their spells known if they could cast spells like that kantian paladin.

Count Geiger wrote:I know rangers are basically combat druids but I like them almost as they are. What spells would you put on their spells known if they could cast spells like that kantian paladin.

Not a damn clue, honestly. I've never played a druid OR a ranger.

Edit: Wait a minute, I know how to start this.

What do you want rangers to do with their spells?

Personally, I can see them being oriented towards terrain/battlefield control, whistling up help through summons, some buffs/healing and maybe the less-flashy damage spell (like Call Lightning as opposed to that flaming scimitar one).

So a first-level spell will be Entangle. Later on, you get mist and cloud spells, and stuff like Freedom of Movement and Find the Path.

But I won't be much more help than that, seeing as how I don't know the Druid/Ranger spells very well and I'm not in a mental condition to trawl through them and look for them.

A ranger that does damage with archery and battlefield control with spells would be pretty neat. That's a 'gish' I'd like to see.

1st: entangle, faerie fire, obscuring mist.
2nd: fog cloud, gust of wind, summon swarm.
3rd: sleet storm, spike growth, wind wall.
4th: air walk, control water, spike stones.
5th: control winds, transmute rock to mud and back to rock again, wall of thorns.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:A ranger that does damage with archery and battlefield control with spells would be pretty neat. That's a 'gish' I'd like to see.

1st: entangle, faerie fire, obscuring mist.
2nd: fog cloud, gust of wind, summon swarm.
3rd: sleet storm, spike growth, wind wall.
4th: air walk, control water, spike stones.
5th: control winds, transmute rock to mud and back to rock again, wall of thorns.

That's honestly what I was thinking. Rangers, if they had to have spells, show up in my head using those spells in conjunction with other things, like bows.

That's what I was thinking you were thinking.

You'd probably want it to go up to at least 6th level (bard casting).
6th: control weather, guards and wards, ...and earthquake?

Ideally it would be more plant and animal based (I could totally imagine the list being entirely plant, animal, and weather spells), but there isn't enough good battlefield control in the core.

Here are some Spell Compendium spells (listed at official level, not necessarily where we'd put them):

2nd: blinding winds, briar web.
3rd: nature's rampart, vine mine.
4th: eye of the hurricane, poison vines

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[edit]
Here's the list without earth magic:

Utility
0th: dancing lights, know direction, message
1st: speak with animals
2nd: animal messenger
3rd: speak with plants
4th: air walk
5th: commune with nature

Control
1st: binding winds, entangle, obscuring mist
2nd:briar web, fog cloud, gust of wind
3rd: sleet storm, vine mine, wind wall
4th: control water, eye of the hurricane, poison vines
5th: control weather, control winds, wall of thorns

Because that's 19 spells plus three cantrips, you could even string them out at 1/level. I'm not sure if that's desirable.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:That's what I was thinking you were thinking.

You'd probably want it to go up to at least 6th level (bard casting).
6th: control weather, guards and wards, ...and earthquake?

Ideally it would be more plant and animal based (I could totally imagine the list being entirely plant, animal, and weather spells), but there isn't enough good battlefield control in the core.

It's what he said.

Bard casting, a la Kantian Paladin.

I might base it on Wisdom, though. It's not like a Ranger won't ever find a use on that.

It might be possible to make a ranger with small modifications to the assassin class. Swap spell lists, do a few alternate class features to introduce a wilderness theme. I'm also not sold on a ranger as a twenty level class. Wilderness guy with a bow isn't an archetype I see lasting into a endgame environment.

Akula wrote:It might be possible to make a ranger with small modifications to the assassin class. Swap spell lists, do a few alternate class features to introduce a wilderness theme. I'm also not sold on a ranger as a twenty level class. Wilderness guy with a bow isn't an archetype I see lasting into a endgame environment.

I was thinking of much the same--particularly that Trapmaking ability.

So...

Full BAB and armor and shields and martial weapons, Kantian Paladin Casting but Wis based, and..maybe a progression of Scaling bonus feats which can be used on skill or combat feats?

A few neato class features, including Hide in Plain Sight, trapmaking, and some sort of animal companion or spirit guide...

That sounds workable.

Maxus wrote:That's honestly what I was thinking. Rangers, if they had to have spells, show up in my head using those spells in conjunction with other things, like bows.

You could borrow class features from the arcane archer, or make a ranger friendly version of the class. Honestly though what kind of class makes spell casting a prerequisite but doesn't advance spellcasting?

Also what do you think there are any decent ranger spells in the complete adventurer?

Aside from Arrowmind and Find the Gap, there aren't really any good ranger spells. Like, at all.

ubernoob wrote:Aside from Arrowmind and Find the Gap, there aren't really any good ranger spells. Like, at all.

Something even I know. Which is why I'm all for pillaging the Druid list.