The Gaming Den

Simply put, as a general rule in 3.x, do characters know when they've run afoul of one of these defenses? Do they know if they've been forced to make a save? How much information do they get? What's the rule justification?

If I cast Scorching Ray at a Succubus, and she doesn't take any damage, do I know if that's whether the spell failed because of her Spell Resistance or because I pissed the damage roll and it couldn't overcome her fire resistance? Do I know if she's fire resistant or fire immune? Do I only find that out if I do 11+ points of fire damage?

If I hit her (while she's disguised) with a Charm Person, do I know if the spell failed? Do I know if it's because she made her save or because she's actually immune?

If I'm hanging out in a tavern, do I know that I just needed to make a save against someone trying to charm me from across the room? Do I know that it was a Will save? Do I somehow innately know who it was? What if the spell was Still or Silent (or both)? What about if they poisoned my drink? What if the poison is odorless and tasteless? If the poison has no effect, do I know that I just made a couple of Fort saves?

As far as your character making a save, my understanding is that is a conscious effort your putting towards resisting something, so you would know that you are making a saving throw. When someone tries to cast charm person on you, you might not know the exact spell, but you would know that someone is trying to fuck with your head. I don't think you would know who it was unless the spell was obvious like a scorching ray or something.

As for the rest of your questions, I'm not quite so sure myself so it will be interesting to hear some of the other poster's responses.

The basic rule on magical effect targeting is that a character knows that they have been hit with an effect even if they make a save to negate. There are a vanishingly small number of spell effects that specify that the effect is covert (like, those weird Necrotic Cyst spells from Libris Mortis).

Non magical effects have no such rule, and it would be up to you to determine whether they are obvious or not on a case by case basis. I would suspect most Reflex Saves would be pretty damn obvious, as would most non-magical Will Saves. Fortitude saves are pretty up in the air. Obviously you can probably tell when you are straining against the cold, but being unaffected by a poison could easily escape notice.

-Username17

If you successfully save against a spell, you are still aware of it; even if the spell's effect was not obvious, or if you did not see it being cast.

Likewise, you always know whether the target of your spell succeeded on his saving throw. Unless it was a multi-target spell, in which case -you don't.

FrankTrollman wrote:The basic rule on magical effect targeting is that a character knows that they have been hit with an effect even if they make a save to negate. There are a vanishingly small number of spell effects that specify that the effect is covert (like, those weird Necrotic Cyst spells from Libris Mortis).

Right. I was discounting the odd-case covert effects. This whole line of questioning was triggered by reading about Paizo's Smoke Haunt. That made me wonder about the general case and what rules govern/justify that case.

Ok, so we have knowledge granted by saves to resist or negate a magical effect. What about the other cases I mentioned? Regarding Spell or Energy resistance? If the flames of a fireball wash over a creature and leave it unharmed, do I know if that's because of Evasion, Spell Resistance, or Energy Resistance/Immunity? I imagine the Evasion angle would be covered by some Matrix visual, but what about the other two?

Non magical effects have no such rule, and it would be up to you to determine whether they are obvious or not on a case by case basis. I would suspect most Reflex Saves would be pretty damn obvious, as would most non-magical Will Saves. Fortitude saves are pretty up in the air. Obviously you can probably tell when you are straining against the cold, but being unaffected by a poison could easily escape notice.

-Username17

Maybe I'm being dense this morning, but I can't think of a non-magical situation off the top of my head that would provoke a Will save, let alone one that would be obvious if you failed it. Help?

I agree with you about Reflex and Fort saves, though I think you could be contracting hypothermia without realizing it until something froze off. But that's just specific example nitpicking.

Wyzzard wrote:Likewise, you always know whether the target of your spell succeeded on his saving throw. Unless it was a multi-target spell, in which case -you don't.

What? Why? What's the justification behind that? Why do I know whether or not I succeeded in charming this peasant right here, but I have no idea who I successfully nabbed with a Chained Charm Person or a Mass Charm Monster?

Maybe I'm being dense this morning, but I can't think of a non-magical situation off the top of my head that would provoke a Will save, let alone one that would be obvious if you failed it. Help?

There are a bunch of non-magical fear effects that give people Will saves.

What? Why? What's the justification behind that? Why do I know whether or not I succeeded in charming this peasant right here, but I have no idea who I successfully nabbed with a Chained Charm Person or a Mass Charm Monster?

He misspoke. He was talking about "area effect" spells like firebal, not multiple target spells like mass charm.

-Username17

violence in the media wrote:
Ok, so we have knowledge granted by saves to resist or negate a magical effect. What about the other cases I mentioned? Regarding Spell or Energy resistance? If the flames of a fireball wash over a creature and leave it unharmed, do I know if that's because of Evasion, Spell Resistance, or Energy Resistance/Immunity? I imagine the Evasion angle would be covered by some Matrix visual, but what about the other two?

I would probably tell a player something like "your spell fizzled" in the case of spell resistance, "it didn't seem to hurt much at all" in the case of energy resistance, and "they dodged it completely" for evasion. I don't think there's anything specific in the rules to cover it, though. Maybe a Spellcraft or Knowledge: Arcana check would be appropriate.

FrankTrollman wrote:He misspoke. He was talking about "area effect" spells like firebal, not multiple target spells like mass charm.

-Username17

Whoops! Yeah, area effects is what I meant.

The relvant quote is:

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow wrote:SRD[/url]]Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

So yes to Finger of Death and Horrid Wilting, and no to Disintegrate and Fireball etc.

There is a section in the rules that says something to the effect that if facing DR/ER/SR, the players should realize it, and you should give a description.

I like using the following description for Energy Resistance/Damage Reduction:

"It's not very effective!"

Personal view:

Making a saving throw means that you weren't affected enough to suffer the full effects of the "attack". It doesn't (usually) mean the attack was unnoticeable, and you will usually (in my games) suffer minor out of game effects. For example, passing your save against an ingested Con-damage poison means you weren't debilitated enough to suffer serious harm. You'll still have minor stomach cramps and a sick feeling though. Similar for Will-based saves, you might feel scared but you man up and face it. This seems more realistic to me than a simple binary "oh, you saved so it's like you never drank the poison".

Regarding immunity, spell resistance and saves, they represent fundamentally different ways of resisting an attack that would be, in most cases, obvious to any observer. A Reflex saving throw is an attempt to dodge the attack, which should be easily noticeable by anyone watching. An immunity means the attack clearly hits, but has no effect. Spell resistance means the spell was literally stopped by the creatures aura, probably fizzling a few inches short of the creatures body. I would tell a player which method the target used to avoid the attack, unless there was some reason it would be unclear. A Fire immune creature probably wouldn't bother dodging a fire-based attack, for example, as it would never have needed to.

Usually if a spell fails due to SR, it just kinda passes right through. Or fizzles before it hits. If they're immune, it hits dead on but nothing happens.

If they're resistant, and it's a weapon attack the wound heals almost immediately. Hit something with DR 10/you don't have it for 10 damage? You pull your sword out and it's like it never went in.

Roy wrote:If they're resistant, and it's a weapon attack the wound heals almost immediately. Hit something with DR 10/you don't have it for 10 damage? You pull your sword out and it's like it never went in.

Some forms of DR are supposed to indicate 'instant regeneration' like you describe. Others are supposed to indicate that your sword bounces off without leaving a dent.

IIRC, DR/adamantium and DR/- are of the 'bounce off' variety, while DR/silver and DR/good are of the 'instant regeneration' variety.