The Gaming Den

Next to Jesse Decker, Peter "The magic items we can't make in 4E" Schaefer, and a recently hired editor, past Monday was the final day for Andy Collins at WotC.

Several questions spring to mind.

1. Which felicitious WotC_forum poster will get canned for the occasion? Anyone left of appropriate standing to step into Frank's shoes?

2. Who is even LEFT at WotC remotely (!) capable of mechanical design? They got rid of EVERYONE now 'xcept for Mearls. They got rid of Heinsoo, Noonan, and now Collins (secondarily, Chris Sims and - now - Peter Schaefer), and I can't think of anyone left.

Leading on from 2.,

3. What type of product in the RPG area could WotC even attempt (at this stage) to design with the remaining staff? It really smacks like "well, we got D&D Essentials and don't plan to do much until.... when we hire a new team". I'm puzzled. Hate him however much you like (personally, I don't at all), Collins was the last guy left at WotC with a shred of insight into D&D's design.

*shrug*

I can't see losing Andy Collins as a remotely big deal. 4E is already fucked anyway. Andy wasn't gonna fix it. Fuck 'em I say.

Time for someone else to try to fill his fail ridden shoes. It'll be hard to do worse honestly. Personally I don't know why they can't just hire some dude with some basic knowledge of math and game theory...

Yeah, someone with some math skills would be nice. Granted, there's a strong risk the game will end up looking like an extended differential equations problem (kinda why I stopped trying to make games after my third such game/problem)....but someone willing to sit down with a calculator and check a few things would be nice, even if the system seems hopelessly beyond repair.

Wyatt is still there..

From the reports leaking out of WotC, it seems like the design team has been self-destructing between the camp that has realized that 4e is a pretty bad system for fantasy RPG and they want to mix it up by adding new mechanics, and the camp that thinks that 4e needs to cleave to their original design goals (regardless of how good of a system you get with those goals).

I'm not worried. Hasbro ran the math years ago when they realized that new editions made money, not support products. 5e is probably already in the spit-balling stage.

K wrote:From the reports leaking out of WotC, it seems like the design team has been self-destructing between the camp that has realized that 4e is a pretty bad system for fantasy RPG and they want to mix it up by adding new mechanics, and the camp that thinks that 4e needs to cleave to their original design goals (regardless of how good of a system you get with those goals).

I'm not worried. Hasbro ran the math years ago when they realized that new editions made money, not support products. 5e is probably already in the spit-balling stage.

Hell, without realizing it, they could even be making 5e by attempting to liven up 4e. It could be sort of like ToB was for 3.5: an interesting new mechanic that largely resembles 4e's way of doing things.

All good things come to an end. And so does Andy Collins's run at WOTC.

Psychic Robot wrote:>implying Andy Collins's run at WotC was a good thing

I was implying exactly the opposite.

K wrote:From the reports leaking out of WotC, it seems like the design team has been self-destructing between the camp that has realized that 4e is a pretty bad system for fantasy RPG and they want to mix it up by adding new mechanics, and the camp that thinks that 4e needs to cleave to their original design goals (regardless of how good of a system you get with those goals).

Really? Where are these reports?

DeadlyReed wrote:Really? Where are these reports?

Who cares? It's not like anyone is going to issue a press release 'had argument, fired them for having insufficient loyalty.'

-Crissa

Crissa wrote:

DeadlyReed wrote:Really? Where are these reports?

Who cares? It's not like anyone is going to issue a press release 'had argument, fired them for having insufficient loyalty.'

-Crissa

Actually, I care. I'd be interested to know more about the situation.

WoTC only realized 4E was a bad system now?

It'd be fun to find out who are the idiots still clinging to it though in the design team.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Actually, I care. I'd be interested to know more about the situation.

Fair enough. So would I.

But you do know we really aren't much of an audience for the juicy details, right? Nor would airing them result in a positive resolution? These sorta things you generally only hear about in people memoirs, not in the tabloids.

-Crissa

It's just my impression from comments made in various editorials. I don't have an inside man or anything.

Somebody ask K which editorials please .

K wrote:It's just my impression from comments made in various editorials. I don't have an inside man or anything.

It's certainly a valid reading of the existence of articles like "I hate the 5 minute workday" and "I don't like Christmas Tree Items." Various members of the remaining design team have said outright that they don't like things that are in fact pillars of the basic 4e design.

-Username17

Are these articles in Dungeon/Dragon?

FrankTrollman wrote: It's certainly a valid reading of the existence of articles like "I hate the 5 minute workday" and "I don't like Christmas Tree Items." Various members of the remaining design team have said outright that they don't like things that are in fact pillars of the basic 4e design.

I have no doubt really that a lot of designers wanted to go with more radical changes to 4E but were voted down.

It's basically the same as with some of the bad decisions that happened with SR4 that you said you disliked. Sometimes as a lone designer, the group is going to add stuff to the game that you don't like and there's jack shit you can do about it besides bitch later about how horrible a decision it was and that you were always against it.

I don't doubt that a lot of designers were against the five minute workday or against Christmas tree items and the whole "small trivial awards" system that magic item gathering was made into.

Zinegata wrote:Are these articles in Dungeon/Dragon?

Greg Bilsland made some comments on his blog, for instance. E.g. http://gregbilsland.wordpress.com/2010/ ... e-workday/

hogarth wrote:

Zinegata wrote:Are these articles in Dungeon/Dragon?

Greg Bilsland made some comments on his blog, for instance. E.g. http://gregbilsland.wordpress.com/2010/ ... e-workday/

Ah. That's why I couldn't find them. They're in their own personal blogs.

Where's the Xmas Tree Items post though? Who said it?

>After all, Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn could have stopped chasing those Uruk-hai; they certainly had expended all their daily attack powers on the battle along the river. But they kept forging ahead to recover Merry and Pipping. It wouldn’t have been a very interesting story if they’d decided to take a 6-hour nap, would it?


Implying that Gimli Legolas and Aragorn use 4e as their fucking system.

I don't recall Merry and Pipping being rescued that particular day, either.

-Crissa

Crissa wrote:I don't recall Merry and Pipping being rescued that particular day, either.

-Crissa

Judging__Eagle wrote:
>After all, Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn could have stopped chasing those Uruk-hai; they certainly had expended all their daily attack powers on the battle along the river. But they kept forging ahead to recover Merry and Pipping. It wouldn’t have been a very interesting story if they’d decided to take a 6-hour nap, would it?


Implying that Gimli Legolas and Aragorn use 4e as their fucking system.

Well no, it implies that an RPG based off LotR wouldn't reward people for taking non-LotR actions. Because we all know 4E is just about simulating LotR.