The Gaming Den

All right, so there's been a lot of talk going on lately about implementing a Winds of Fate system to reduce the tedium of combat. And if there's any D&D edition that needs the tedium reduced it's 4th Edition; furthermore, 4th Edition gives characters a lot of pre-organized powers, which makes it an even better candidate.

Obviously using 4E is not going to be optimal. I would rather there be more options to put on the Winds of Fate wheel, but I had to go with a number that wouldn't leave any classes out in the cold nor would it require reorganizing powers. This system is specifically designed to be pasted into 4E with a minimal amount of effort, as long as you regard my 4E houserules (and honestly, most of them need to be implemented into the game Winds of Fate or no).

Yes, on average my system speeds the game up noticeably more than what the game designers intended, since even with the worst-case scenario you will be spamming powers that were 'meant' to be encounter powers. This is intentional, because the game was painfully padded sumo (and it still is) and I don't know why the fuck the game designers are trying to force the game to be padded sumo again. But whatever.

Generic changes that need to happen for the system to work

First of all, there are no such thing anymore as classes with implements and weapons. If a class uses both they can use any weapon as an implement for it and any expansion options that applies to one applies to the other. This means that we can completely throw out all of the holy symbols.

Classes have single-stat primary powers. This means that 1st-level paladins can decide to have all of their powers STR-based or CHA-based.

Classes have their ranged/melee basic attack keyed off of whatever stat they like (which means that a rogue can use CHA-based melee basic attacks). Classes may pick one power off of their list that can be used as a basic attack. They can set it aside as a generic basic attack.

Characters can use their basic attacks any time outside of the Winds of Fate system. However, this very quickly becomes a pointless endeavor in all but the most trying circumstances (such as a melee-power only character trying to tag a harpy with a javelin), as even the weakest power in a character's arsenal becomes much stronger than their basic attack.

Utility Powers. A character can only initiate one utility power a round, though can sustain any number as long as they have enough actions for it. Utility powers that use a standard action to initiate or sustain the power now only need a move action. Utility powers that use a move action to initiate or sustain the power now only need a minor action. Utility powers that use a minor action to initiate a power can be used as a free action during the character's turn, though they still take a minor action to sustain.

All feats which effect the replenishment or selection schedule of encounter or daily attack powers are banned. A better list will be calculated in the near-future.

Winds of Fate Setup

Starting from level 1, characters get four At-Will powers, three Encounter Powers, and two Daily powers. They go into a 4 x 3 grid, called a Roulette Wheel, something like this:

At-Will | Encount | Dailies
---------+---------+--------
1 Slash | S.Slash | ******
----------+---------+--------
2 Stab | Wir.Wind | P.Blow
----------+---------+--------
3 Strike | ****** | D.Stab
----------+---------+--------
4 Bash | Hol.Bash | ******
----------+---------+--------

Characters are not allowed to leave extra spaces open. Characters are not allowed to put a lower-level power into a higher-level slot. Once the powers are put into the Roulette Wheel, the order cannot be changed outside of an extended rest. However, during an extended rest a character may re-arrange their powers in any order they like consistent with the previous rules; a character may also swap out a power in their Roulette Wheel for a power outside of the Roulette Wheel that is the same level.

Winds of Fate usage and replenishment:

At the beginning of every combat, a PC rolls a 1d4; at end of every turn, a PC rolls two 1d4s, called the First and Second Winds of Fate rolls; the number they get on the first 1d4 corresponds to the row of powers that they can use. For example, if Rothgar rolls a 2 on his second Wind of Fate roll, he has the option of using Stab, Whirlwind, and Power Blow for his next turn.

At-Will powers can be used at any time, but encounter powers may only be used once. If a character uses one of the encounter powers then they aren't allowed to use them any more, until a character makes the second Wind of Fate roll at the end of their turn. The number corresponding to the second Wind of Fate roll lets the player know which encounter power comes back. If they are able to use the row of powers corresponding to that row, they can use it again. If not, the power remains available until that row is selected. It is thus possible for a character to be able to repeatedly use 'Holy Bash' if they keep rolling 4 for both of their Winds of Fate rolls. Using an encounter power that was replenished after losing them all due to the first use does not make other encounter powers unavailable for the rest of the combat.

Daily powers may only be used once per encounter; if a player uses any daily powers the rest of the daily powers become unavailable. Furthermore, the encounter power corresponding to that row also becomes unavailable.

One minute worth of rest causes all encounter powers to return. Five minutes worth of rest causes the daily powers to return.

Example Winds of Fate usage:

On the first round of combat, Rothgar rolls a 2 on the 1d4 roll. This allows him to select any of the powers from Row 2. Rothgar decides to open combat with Power Blow, which makes Whirlwind unavailable. At the end of his turn, he rolls a 4 and a 2 on his Winds of Fate roll, causing Whirlwind to become replenished and allowing him to use a power from Row 4.

On the second round of combat, Rothgar engages a golem. Holy Bash wouldn't work too well against the creature and he doesn't want to make Super Slash and Whirlwind--which would be much more useful--unavailable, so decides to use the power 'Bash'. For his Winds of Fate roll, he rolls a 3 and a 1. Since Rothgar already had Super Slash available, the second roll has no effect.

On round three, all Rothgar can use is Strike. Deathstab is unavailable as he used a daily power earlier in combat. For his Winds of Fate roll, he rolls a 2 and a 3; since there is no encounter power in slot three Rothgar the second Winds of Fate roll has no effect.

On round four, Rothgar has his choice between using Stab and Whirlwind. Rothgar was looking especially forward to using Whirlwind, so immediately uses it to great effect. After he uses it, all of the other powers become unavailable. For his Winds of Fate roll, he rolls a 1 and a 4, which makes Holy Bash come back but not, unfortunately, Super Slash.

On round five, all Rothgar can use is Slash. At the end of his turn, he rolls a 1 and a 1, which makes Super Slash available again and enables him to use the same row of powers.

On round six, Rothgar immediately uses Super Slash and finishes off the golem, whereupon the controlling ghost escapes. Since he already replenished a power beforehand, he does not lose the use of Holy Bash (which he regained at the end of Round Four). At the end of his turn, he rolls a 4 and a 4. The replenishment roll doesn't do anything, unfortunately.

At round seven, Rothgar uses Holy Bash and finishes off the controlling spirit, winning the combat.

Gaining New Winds of Fate Powers:

Every time a character gains access to a new set of encounter powers, the previous set of encounter powers become At-Wills and the character must select another encounter power of the old level to fill the gap. The character must then choose three new encounter powers from the new higher level to replace the old one. For example, once Rothgar reaches level 3, their Roulette Wheel now looks like this:

At-Will | Encount | Dailies
---------+---------+--------
1 S.Slash | Fi.Spin | ******
----------+---------+--------
2 Ho.Bash | TwoCuts | P.Blow
----------+---------+--------
3 Wi.Wind | Flare-B | ******
----------+---------+--------
4 G.Charge| ****** | D.stab
----------+---------+--------

Whenever a character gains access to a new set of daily powers, they simply pick two new powers of the level to replace the old one, putting them in any level they wish. For example, once Rothgar reaches level 5, their Roulette Wheel now looks like this:

At-Will | Encount | Dailies
---------+---------+--------
1 S.Slash | F.Spin | ******
----------+---------+--------
2 H.Bash | TwoCuts | IceBlow
----------+---------+--------
3 G.Charge| Flare-B | LitSwng
----------+---------+--------
4 W.Wind | ****** | ******
----------+---------+--------

This cycle repeats until the end of the game, with two special exceptions.

At level 11, when a character gains access to a paragon encounter attack power, the attack power goes into the unfilled slot in the encounter column of the Roulette Wheel. At level 20, when a character gains access to a paragon daily attack power, the attack power goes into the unfilled slot into the Daily column of the Roulette Wheel. These powers can be expended as normal, following the same rules as the other powers in the Roulette Wheel. These powers never move category nor get replaced when a character gains access to a new set of encounter or daily powers. They will never be replaced nor go obsolete.

At level 13, using your paragon path encounter attack power does not cause your other encounter attack powers to become unavailable; moreover, using your other encounter attack powers does not cause your paragon path encounter attack power to become unavailable. At level 25 using your paragon path daily attack power does not cause the other daily attack powers to become unavailable nor does using the other powers cause the paragon path daily attack power to become unavailable.

Problematic Powers

Before you implement this system, you need to watch out for powers that replenish some resource that's meant to tide you over for several combats, such as healing-surge free hit points or action points, as daily powers are now supposed to be used every combat instead of being an occasional thing. Such powers are few and far between, but the DM should watch out for them anyway and just consider not letting a PC pick that power. But then again, this problem existed even with the 15-minute workday 4E unwittingly created in the first place. Still, keep an eye out for them.

Oh yeah, two other minor alteration I forgot to add:

Even if you use a daily or encounter power in a round, you are still allowed to use other powers on the same row of the roulette wheel as long as you have enough actions to support it. For example, someone who burns an action point can use a Standard Action daily, a minor-action encounter power, and a Standard Action At-Will.

Furthermore, if you load your Roulette Wheel with a power that can be used as a free action, an immediate interrupt, or an opportunity action that power is 'loaded' until you use it at the appropriate time. Using other encounter powers will still cause you to lose the power as normal, but using immediate/free/immediate interrupt powers won't cause you to 'lose' your other encounter powers.

Lago PARANOIA wrote: On the second round of combat, Rothgar engages a golem. Holy Bash wouldn't work too well against the creature and he doesn't want to make Super Slash and Whirlwind--which would be much more useful--unavailable, so decides to use the power 'Bash'. For his Winds of Fate roll, he rolls a 3 and a 1. Since Rothgar already had Super Slash available, the second roll has no effect.

Maybe I just fail at reading, but why would using Holy Bash disallow SSlash or WWind?

Also, even though we're modifying 4E, it's pretty ludicrous to call them encounters and dailies since they're nothing of the sort.

Another problem: d4s suck. Use d6s.

Why keep "encounter" and "daily" powers with a hokey recharge mechanism? You might as well just change them to "uncommon" and "rare" powers and just ensure they don't come up too often.

endersdouble: the reason why using Holy Bash would disallow Sslash or Wwind is because otherwise people would go whole combats without using their 'At-Wills'. Winds of Fate is supposed to make players use their other powers more... and since 4E doesn't have an iterative attack mechanic, initially disabling the powers is pretty much the only way.

ed & hogarth: Honestly, there's really no reason why I kept the terms but the point was to make it so that you can copypaste the system into 4E mechanics with as little alteration as possible. I thought it would be easier to get people to accept the fact that Dailies can be used every encounter now than for them to have to mentally edit the word every time they saw it.

And it wouldn't be the first time 4E used a misleading term anyway!

CG wrote:Another problem: d4s suck. Use d6s.

Believe me, I'd love nothing more than to retire the d4 but 4E characters don't have enough powers to use d6s.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Believe me, I'd love nothing more than to retire the d4 but 4E characters don't have enough powers to use d6s.

Get rid of the two roll mechanic and just do one d6 roll. On 1-4 you get the appropriate row. On 5, you can pick which row you want. On 6, refresh any used encounter power and roll again; if you roll another 6, you can refresh a daily and then choose the row you want.

I understand the driving force behind using WoF to reduce spamming, but how do you explain it in game? What is it that makes it so a fighter can do some attack one round and not the next? Or rather, what "unlocks" a maneuver for him?

I see why they tried it with the 3.5 crusader by handwaving it and calling it divine inspiration, but what about the more martial oriented characters?

Most games don't actually model what you have to do to setup for Holy Bash or what state your enemy has to be in or any other thing that could reliably tell you when an ability is unlocked. If you're willing to start with the assumption that some moves are going to be unavailable because of universe mechanics that we don't deal directly with, then WoF is just a shorthand randomizer that covers all of that stuff in an easy way (and if you're not willing to accept that WoF will probably never be satisfying to you). So that problem with WoF is generally pushed off into narrative land. The actual "why" behind some moves being available and some not is left as an exercise in descriptive storytelling for the player.

If it helps, you could thing of the WoF system as telling you which abilities you have an opening for and which you do not. They're all technically available then, but you're not going to care about that ones that won't work.

Fair enough. I figured it must be a balance trumps believability thing.

I was just curious if Lago had any thoughts on the matter or if this was simply a mechanical thing.

What if instead of 2d4 you roll 1d6 and on a 5 or a 6 you re-roll and the result is also refreshed as well?

Lago PARANOIA wrote:endersdouble: the reason why using Holy Bash would disallow Sslash or Wwind is because otherwise people would go whole combats without using their 'At-Wills'. Winds of Fate is supposed to make players use their other powers more... and since 4E doesn't have an iterative attack mechanic, initially disabling the powers is pretty much the only way.

I understand the balance, I can't find where the rules say one encounter power kills another.

Archmage, that sounds good to me.

endersdouble wrote: I understand the balance, I can't find where the rules say one encounter power kills another.

At-Will powers can be used at any time, but encounter powers may only be used once. If a character uses one of the encounter powers then they aren't allowed to use them any more, until a character makes the second Wind of Fate roll at the end of their turn. The number corresponding to the second Wind of Fate roll lets the player know which encounter power comes back. If they are able to use the row of powers corresponding to that row, they can use it again. If not, the power remains available until that row is selected. It is thus possible for a character to be able to repeatedly use 'Holy Bash' if they keep rolling 4 for both of their Winds of Fate rolls. Using an encounter power that was replenished after losing them all due to the first use does not make other encounter powers unavailable for the rest of the combat. "

RobbyPants wrote: I was just curious if Lago had any thoughts on the matter or if this was simply a mechanical thing.

This is just a mechanical thing. If the Winds of Fate system works as it should for 4E then we can come up with justifications for it later.

OK, I missed "them." It still somewhat confuses me that they come back one-by-one and are expired all at once.

endersdouble wrote: It still somewhat confuses me that they come back one-by-one and are expired all at once.

I know it's confusing, but otherwise people would spend too much time using their dailies and encounter powers and would go entire combats without using their 'At-Wills'.

While that kind of behavior is desirable in an actual 4E game, that's only because At-Wills in 4E do not fucken change from levels 1-30. under my WoF system they do, so people should be using their At-Wills fairly regularly.

The point is that I don't want being forced to use At-Wills as a punishment for bad rolling, but Encounter powers to be used as a reward for average rolling. I know it works out the same, but the psychological effects are different. If you don't believe me, ask how a 2E player feels about getting a +2 sword versus a 4E character of similar level.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:

endersdouble wrote: It still somewhat confuses me that they come back one-by-one and are expired all at once.

I know it's confusing, but otherwise people would spend too much time using their dailies and encounter powers and would go entire combats without using their 'At-Wills'.

If that's what you're going for, my naive suggestion would be to make dailies and encounter powers come up less frequently instead.

hogarth wrote: If that's what you're going for, my naive suggestion would be to make dailies and encounter powers come up less frequently instead.

I don't want them to come up TOO infrequently. They should ideally only be used about 2-3 rounds of a 6-8 round combat.

Remember, the At-Will powers people were using they were already diddling with for up to 6 levels as encounter powers. It's desirable for them to be put on the backburner once people get access to a new set of encounter powers.

In that vein, I'd like there to be a way to make levels 7-13 and 17-23 less dull as it seems like too much of a stretch to be using the same shit, even with the daily power upgrades. But methods escape me. I suppose that the new paragon path encounter power and the extra daily would whet peoples' appetites at the critical points, but I'd like to give players a bit more than just one measly extra power.

I think part of what makes winds of fate more interesting is that some times your supposed to want to choose some powers over others.

In that case at wills don't seem to have a place in the table, they are almost always inferior. Is there any way to change it so that your looking at different encounter powers instead?

Maybe have some powers represented at multiple places.

I would suggest splitting it up into the same table you have, but 2 columns are for encounter powers and 1 column for dailies, take out the blank spots and tell people they can repeat powers. The thing here is that each power still needs to be refreshed; if you use the power it's exhausted in all places it appears on their chart.

Then just have a separate chart for refreshing that uses a d6; 1-4 are encounter and 5-6 are dailies (every position would be specific power, so 1 would be fi.spin, 2 twocuts, 3. flare-b). Give everyone the normal at wills, 4 encounter and 2 dailies.

Thymos wrote:
In that case at wills don't seem to have a place in the table, they are almost always inferior. Is there any way to change it so that your looking at different encounter powers instead?

My system doesn't use the powers originally marked At-Wills in 4E after level 1 and 2. Encounter powers become the 'At-Wills'. I know it's a terminology paradigm shift, but like I said I thought it would be easier for people to accept the paradigm shift than to mentally insert whatever bullshit terms I came up with for this system.

The blank spots are there to make room for the paragon encounter attack and daily powers people will get later on in life. While you could have a placeholder power in there, I have found that PP powers tend to be inferior to class-based ones, so people would avoid picking them up if they could--which leads to empty levels an people getting upset at how little their character progressed. And if their PP power had to knock off a superior class power people get upset at taking a level that makes them weaker.

Finally, Thymos, people should not be allowed to stack their power. That's crazy-talk. While this system still won't prevent rangers from running away with the game, it will at least prevent fighters from running roughshod over avengers.

Ah, sorry, didn't get to the part at the bottom. It makes a lot more sense now.

I was suggesting stacking powers as in if using one exhausted all positions of that one power then they would be short changing themselves to put it everywhere.

Ignore my response then.

One question: you seem to frequently rant about certain encounter powers being better than later encounter powers and even dailies (mostly multi attack powers, I haven't kept up with errata though).

Are you worried about turning those into at wills? Part of the assumption for this to work seems to be that the higher level encounter powers are better than the lower level ones. My impression is that this isn't the case.

The biggest "balance issue" of letting Rangers turn Encounter Power into at-wills would be them spamming their damn minor action attacks every round. But if they need to make a WoF roll to get one off each round, the problem sort of solves itself.

In fact, I'm sort of more worried about them the other way. Are there enough "attack with both weapons" powers so that a Ranger even can do their two sword strike every round?

Wizards of course don't have shit to worry about. They have more powers than other classes, and they are supposed to throw out something weird and crazy every round. But Rangers are supposed to attack twice with a bastard sword and for the first couple of rounds get a minor action extra blow on top of that. That's pretty limited for a WoF system.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote: Wizards of course don't have shit to worry about. They have more powers than other classes, and they are supposed to throw out something weird and crazy every round. But Rangers are supposed to attack twice with a bastard sword and for the first couple of rounds get a minor action extra blow on top of that. That's pretty limited for a WoF system.

With just PHB and Martial Power (I refuse to buy MP2), rangers actually don't have that many minor-action encounter powers.

Underneath this system the ranger, if they get their encounter power on, can still throw out the encounter power and an At-Will. However, since there aren't really all that many off-action encounter attack powers (only levels 3 and 23 provide more than one) the problem sort of ends up solving itself since oftentimes a ranger, with the below house-rule I provided, will only really have one minor-action encounter attack power on their Roulette Wheel. There are still two problems with rangers, however:

1) I do need to put a note in there about disallowing people from sticking off-action powers into the At-Will slot and allowing them (just this once) to fill slots with lower-level powers if they don't have enough powers with this rule. I am a firm believer in people only needing to buy one book to make their characters work.

2) Rangers and bards and probably some other classes have the problem of needing a unique weapon/implement for melee powers and a unique weapon/implement for ranged powers. While the houserules I recommend solve the problem for paladins and clerics, the problem is that you can't melee with a bow nor can you throw a maul. I suggest making another note allowing people to pick non-off-action lower-level powers (again) to fill up missing slots if they don't have enough powers.

But this is a problem of 4E deciding to make melee characters completely hopeless at ranged attacks if they're not specced for it and vice-versa. There's really no easy fix for it, because it's ingrained into the system.

Thymos wrote:Are you worried about turning those into at wills? Part of the assumption for this to work seems to be that the higher level encounter powers are better than the lower level ones. My impression is that this isn't the case.

Yes, but there are still a few mitigating factors.

1) The player is forced to cycle out powers anyway. So something crazy like Disruptive Strike (Ranger 3) is going to be gone at level 13.

2) The system is still better than the system 4E currently has, which not only promotes Five Moves of Doom but encourages people to hold onto a combo piece that's 20 levels out of date.

3) Even the 'awesome' powers are really not all of that earth-shattering. There are a few crazy-go-nuts powers out there like Sudden Assault and Stinking Cloud, but for the most part the powers tend to be of the type 'this level 13 encounter attack power pushes AND slows, while the level 17 encounter attack power slows in a close burst 1', where the advantage of the lower-level power is obvious but not dominating.

You guys had mentioned using a WoF system for power usage in the "Book Marketing Thread" and the "Kitchen Sink" thread. I'm assuming you guys would have a level system in place with at least 20 levels - how would you suggest integrating "subclass" powers into this system?