The Gaming Den

Don't get me wrong, I loved my Introduction to AD&D set back in the day and I fucken loved DragonStrike and if I didn't hold a vendetta against WotC for unrelated stuff I would probably get this too, but let's get real here. I am not exactly what you would call a profitable market segment.

To my knowledge, stuff like this never sold as well as 'real' rulebooks when previous patrons of D&D tried this. And I think it's a really hard sell to expect that the people who like 4E are going to pick up the Essentials line, since it appeals in a different kind of way.

So who exactly is WotC trying to pick up with this here?

It's directed at new players that what to try the game out, not already existing 4E fans.

Already existing fans may pick up some of the expansions for new powers and builds, but I do not expect that many will.

Data Vampire, that question isn't even half-answered

Why would they try out D&D Essentials if they haven't already tried 3E and 4E? Are the games too complicated for them? If so, then why would they pick up these kinds of games at all? And assuming that there is a market segment of people for whom board games and WoW aren't complicated enough but D&D is too much, how much money can WotC really expect from them?

I don't know. It's as though they looked at the business plan of TSR and thought it was a good idea.

...Without realizing that TSR went bankrupt.

-Crissa

Well, Green Ronin's Dragon Age would be the better intro rpg.

To me, the only people who will buy Essentials are current 4e fans. The redbox will be bought just for the cover and for gifts to nephews and kids.

The tilesets will be bought by current 4e fans, since the original tilesets are overpriced during in secondary market (the generic tilesets were out of print before).

The Monster Vault will be bought by 4e fans, for the updated MM1 monsters having lower HP and defense, and probably updated chromatic dragons. Also it contain tokens, so those who are currently playing without minis, will get something in between. Then again, they might not buy it if the monsters are in DDI.

The DM kit will be bought by 4e fans who just want token, DM screen, monsters and for the sake of being completist. There is also short adventures in this as well as in the redbox and it has the potential to pull of a Keep on Borderlands or Keep of Shadowfell.

Finally, provided the builds will be in DDI, the two Heroes of... book will be only be bought by 4e fans due to them having extra change.

The days where a complete newbie to the hobby buying an rpg by himself is gone. They would rather pickup an Xbox or WOW subscription. Rpgs are only introduced through fellow gamers and they can do it using the normal PHB1 in the first place.

BUT, if this Essentials DOES bring alot of new kids to the hobby, I have no complaints.

Newbies don't even buy WoW as their first game or MMO for themselves (else they play for a few minutes and quit because they have no idea what buttons to press). Why would they buy the red box, which won't even be on a shelf that many people even know about, let alone see?

-Crissa

Well, Green Ronin's Dragon Age would be the better intro rpg.

An RPG that's badly written, badly balanced, and doesn't let you do a tiny fraction of the things possible in the source material?

No.

I smell a hate-filled review.

Do what's in your heart, DragonChild.

Irony is, people complain that DA doesn't feel like a video game even though it is based on one.

Do what's in your heart, DragonChild.

Not much to it. Character creation is way too random. It keeps the power level extremely low, basically turning the first *hour* or so of the 60 hour video game into an RPG, and keeping you so weak that it doesn't feature any of the exciting stuff from the game, or the things that actually make the setting unique. It charges you the same "points" for useful abilities and useless story abilities. And then the dungeon master book is filled with the usual "Anyone who's halfway intelligent, or dares to question your divine authority is a MUNCHKIN!" shit.

DragonChild wrote:[..]basically turning the first *hour* or so of the 60 hour video game into an RPG[..]

I thought that was the intent -- that there would be a "Basic D&D" version, and then if that was successful an "Expert" version, a "Companion" version, etc.

Fucking hell. If you want something done you gotta do it yourself.

Whar's muh credit card?! I'm going RPG shoppin'!

Lago PARANOIA wrote: So who exactly is WotC trying to pick up with this here?

People who like buying D&D "core" rulebooks. "Essentials" is just a euphemism for "4.5".

hogarth wrote: People who like buying D&D "core" rulebooks. "Essentials" is just a euphemism for "4.5".

Pretty much yeah. It's a new way of phrasing a new edition.

Actually, is there a "Morrigan Disapproves" mechanic? That would be important to the game.

Not that I approve of any Morrigan that isn't a green-haired succubus by Capcom.

I thought that was the intent -- that there would be a "Basic D&D" version, and then if that was successful an "Expert" version, a "Companion" version, etc.

Yes. But the next book still isn't out, will cost more money, and it's a stupid ass way to do things.

Actually, is there a "Morrigan Disapproves" mechanic? That would be important to the game.

No... but I want one now.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Fucking hell. If you want something done you gotta do it yourself.

Whar's muh credit card?! I'm going RPG shoppin'!

Lago, you are the James Rolfe of the RPG world. /salute!

"Who is D&D Essentials supposed to appeal to, Tom?"

"No one. It's a suicide maneuver designed to kill DnD. It's like in The Producers. They've been trying to kill DnD ever since 4e came out, starting with Forgotten Realms and trying to turn it into a post-apocylapse."

And you know, his flippant remarks made a lot of sense.

Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Nazi party!

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Don't get me wrong, I loved my Introduction to AD&D set back in the day and I fucken loved DragonStrike and if I didn't hold a vendetta against WotC for unrelated stuff I would probably get this too, but let's get real here. I am not exactly what you would call a profitable market segment.

To my knowledge, stuff like this never sold as well as 'real' rulebooks when previous patrons of D&D tried this. And I think it's a really hard sell to expect that the people who like 4E are going to pick up the Essentials line, since it appeals in a different kind of way.

So who exactly is WotC trying to pick up with this here?

By cutting off 4th ed development, everyone.

It will appeal (possibly) to n00bs or kids who have outgrown Magic & Pokemon CCGs. They will want to play, but since 4th ed will not have any new books out, and the essentials line will be more along the lines of Magic (a new expansion every year or so to ensure that you will spend money... forever...) purchasing experience, WotC are hoping to get the new players into Essentials.

At that point, generally, they're probably hoping the old hands will end up latching on just so that they can play their precious precious D&D.

I'm so fucking burned out on D&D however it's amazing. I haven't played a serious game of it in *years*, and haven't played in a full campaign since 3rd edition. I don't miss it either.

4e D&D is so weirdly modular that you totally could fix most of the problems with it simply by rebooting it 3.5 style. You're going to be rewriting the races and the classes, and the monsters, and the equipment, and a good portion of the mechanics. You could just fix most of the major problems without even mentioning that you were doing so.

If the new monsters do a lot more damage and are a lot easier to kill, and their defenses don't scale up faster than PC attack rates, the the grind will be a lot more manageable.

If all the classes get reset and all the confusing powers get dropped, and then new classes are introduced instead of perpetuating the constant arms race, then both the constrictiveness of potential classes and the fiddly confusion of actually playing the game could go away.

And so on. But I don't believe they will fix anything. One of the guys they had writing the new Epic Monsters in the Monster Manual 3 that they are mining for D&D Essentials concepts from has never played any Epic level 4e. Not even in playtest. They put Mike Mearls in charge of D&D. They put James "I can't get Christ's dick out of my mouth" Wyatt in charge of development. They have shown us their big ideas, and they fucking suck.

-Username17

What the fuck happened to James Wyatt? He used to be pretty okay, but he took a huge bite of the crazy sandwich and is a hack now.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:What the fuck happened to James Wyatt? He used to be pretty okay, but he took a huge bite of the crazy sandwich and is a hack now.

When has he ever not been a hack? He was the primary author on Book of Exalted Deeds and Magic of Incarnum. The only reason you have any fondness for him is because he was one of the authors on Oriental Adventures, back when it didn't both us that Unbalancing Strike was unbalancing.

If you allow him to talk about good and evil, ethics, morality, justice, or philosophy, he will shit all over your book. If you ask him to write numbers and abilities, then they won't add up very well.

James Wyatt is not now, and never was a good writer.

-Username17

Don't you be talking about my Oriental Adventures, Frank.

Is James Wyatt even in the top tier of bad D&D writers? I can think of at least 5 people working for 4E who suck more at writing D&D than him. And Book of Exalted Deeds set a pretty high bar.

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Is James Wyatt even in the top tier of bad D&D writers? I can think of at least 5 people working for 4E who suck more at writing D&D than him. And Book of Exalted Deeds set a pretty high bar.

Hmm...

Well, SKR is worse, obviously. As the mastermind behind Savage Species and Magic of Faerun, he reigns supreme in shitty ideas and worse implementations.

Bruce Cordell is worse. Even being allowed to write and rewrite the psionics rules four times, he still couldn't get anything interesting or playable. Man can't even be fucked to read the power creation guidelines for 4th edition D&D. Seriously, the man has no business being hired for anything.

But that could seriously be the whole list.

Yes, Mike Mearls is more infuriating, because he's so fucking smug and self aggrandizing despite never finishing any projects. But he doesn't drop BoED turds on your lap.

David Noonan did that fucking awful Roles idea in the first place. But his work in Manual of the Planes was pretty damn good actually. Yes, Tome of Magic was fucking awful, but it failed no worse or even differently from Magic of Incarnum.

Monte Cook needs an editor because if he is allowed to write whatever mechanics he wants, they will be bad. But his actual prose is very engaging.

And so on. I just can't even think of anyone working on current 4e projects (except Bruce Cordell) that I would less trust with a writing assignment than James Wyatt.

-Fran