The Gaming Den

Yeah, all of you jackasses. This board has had a huge drop in quality lately, as potentially useful threads are hijacked and derailed with retarded discussions. But this, this is the fucking last straw: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51273

Seriously - do we really need to chase away and hound new people? Yes, this board hates 4e, but obviously some people here still play it and read up on it. That makes it *the perfect fucking board to get 4e advice on*. If you wanted to know if something in Pathfinder is unbalanced, you wouldn't go to fucking Paizo, you'd ask it at a place that's lukewarm but still knowledgeable about pathfinder.

And it's not just that. All the bigotry, troll, etc, discussions, and completely unwarranted attacks against people on random threads are making this place shitty. If you don't like something or someone, you CAN just close the thread or ignore it. You don't have to be a douchebag and start a flamewar every opportunity you get.

I really can't agree more.

Wow. Yeah.

We used to be about math and rage and analysis and spite - but that thread is all just rage and anal and spite, all of which I can find in plentiful supply elsewhere on the internet.

After the last epic nuclear flame war I've learned the best policy is to simply sit back and enjoy the fireworks.

And to just go "Death to the Judean Liberation Front!" when people start taking things that don't affect their lives too fucking seriously.

But without my trolling I feel weak and powerless! If I can't constantly yell at other people, I get to thinking about my own inadequaticies.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:But without my trolling I feel weak and powerless! If I can't constantly yell at other people, I get to thinking about my own inadequaticies.

Do not worry! This is why the Commissariat exists!

I wouldn't have opened that thread if not for this one. Obvious trolling is blatantly obvious until proven otherwise. Nobody can be that stupid. I just refuse to believe someone that stupid exists.

ubernoob wrote:I wouldn't have opened that thread if not for this one. Obvious trolling is blatantly obvious until proven otherwise. Nobody can be that stupid. I just refuse to believe someone that stupid exists.

That's because you're an intolerant asshat.

Zinegata wrote:

ubernoob wrote:I wouldn't have opened that thread if not for this one. Obvious trolling is blatantly obvious until proven otherwise. Nobody can be that stupid. I just refuse to believe someone that stupid exists.

That's because you're an intolerant asshat.

I never claimed to be otherwise. Am I supposed to have my feelings hurt by being called names over the internet or something?

You're not admitting to anything. You're just making excuses to continue being an ass to people who don't necessarily deserve it.

Peddle your bullsht all you want, but the fact remains: You're an intolerant asshat. And you're gonna remain a loser because of it.

I wouldn't have opened that thread if not for this one. Obvious trolling is blatantly obvious until proven otherwise. Nobody can be that stupid. I just refuse to believe someone that stupid exists.

There's a difference between "stupid" and "inexperienced". There's a lot of people who DO go around with ignorant shit about Eberron or whatever (even on this forum). Someone who asks if that's true or not is wanting to learn, and not "trolling".

I once opened a thread on the WOTC forums about how a 3.0 Ranger 10/Forsaker 10 was overpowered. I got better. This wasn't because I was screamed at, yelled at for being a troll, and so on. It's because people like Josh explained in simple, rational terms, without any insults, on how I was being a dumbass.

DragonChild wrote:There's a difference between "stupid" and "inexperienced". There's a lot of people who DO go around with ignorant shit about Eberron or whatever (even on this forum). Someone who asks if that's true or not is wanting to learn, and not "trolling".

I once opened a thread on the WOTC forums about how a 3.0 Ranger 10/Forsaker 10 was overpowered. I got better. This wasn't because I was screamed at, yelled at for being a troll, and so on. It's because people like Josh explained in simple, rational terms, without any insults, on how I was being a dumbass.

First of all, trolls do exist, and as I pointed out in that thread, there is practically no chance that someone would end up at this forum before they found eight or nine other forums. So trolls from other forums, or even this one, are more likely than people brand new to internet gaming forums who just happen to discover this one.

Second, no one yelled at him for being a troll. I complimented him on an excellent trolling. If he's not actually trolling, it's just a false compliment, not an evil murderous rampage.

Yeah, I thought the way people started attacking the new guy was a little overboard.

Now, I'm going to pontificate a bit, it's just something I do.

People see Frank and K's posting style and want to imitate it. That's not my way, but let's face it, they're two guys with decent charisma who are prominent on these boards.

Here's the thing: Both are very good at what they do, and Frank is actually one the of the nicest guys I know. (K might also be a nice guy, I just have never spoken to him except through the boards. However, K seems to not hold the arguments we had years ago against me today so that technically makes him a better man than most of the people I interact with on the boards.) They have flamboyant posting styles but they can back up their mouths with ability and both legitimately seems to want to help people.

That is a far cry from being the type of poster too many people here have been.

Now, here's something that a lot of people need to keep in mind (hell, I even have trouble with this concept): It is not your job to punish stupidity. No one here is The Internet Avenger: Punisher of the Wicked. There are only 5 names on the moderator list, and I know at least two of those people are tech support and not interested in moderating behavior.

And even then, the moderators here aren't here to "punish". We are all adults here, none of us are young enough that we need our elders to spank us if we misbehave (No comments from you, Koumei ).

TL;DR version: No one died and made you God of the Internet. Cool it.

Count you are wrong.

The moderators don't police behavior except when it is particularly bad not because behavior should not be discouraged, but because being in a position of power, if they are wrong about something, there is no recompense.

Even your post here is directly an attempt to police behavior. You are trying to convince people to stop policing behavior because that is a behavior you don't want to see. So.... Hilarious.

There is a valid argument to be made that I go "too far" in discouraging behavior that annoys me, but there is no leg to stand on in the "If someone just starts randomly lying about what other people said in every post, you should just ignore it and never contradict them."

And that's the point. Behavior needs to be policed on a forum by people calling people on their shit, and every time you try to claim that people should just not call people on their shit you are making the universe a worse place.

Of course, you yourself call Crissa on her shit sometimes, just not as often or vehemently as I do. And Frank as well calls people on their shit regularly, see, LaughingMan.

TL;DR: Make an argument that some people (aka that mean Kaelik bastard) go too far in punishing stupidity, not that no one should punish stupidity.


Now in the interest of calling people on their shit, who actually attacked the new guy?

Kaelik wrote:
Now in the interest of calling people on their shit, who actually attacked the new guy?

umm...

Kaelik wrote:This is so retarded on so many levels that I can only compliment Elennsar returned on his epic trolling.

You can say that your use of the word "compliment" negates the rest of the post but it does not.

And there is a difference between pointing out rudeness and verbally attacking someone. You might be too emotionally impaired to see that, but to the rest of us the distinction does in fact exist.

I understand your emotional problems give you a life harder than it needs to be, I completely feel you on that. However, no one has ever cut me slack on my emotional issues here. I eventually had to take a couple months off and work on altering my behavior. Even if someone doesn't "get" why some things are proper behavior and why some things are not, it CAN be learned.

It isn't fair that you were born with a decent brain but impaired ability to interact with other humans. It's not fair that you have to work you ass off to be able to learn what comes 100% instinctually to the rest of us. Life is hard for those of us whose brains don't do exactly what they are supposed to do, but them's the breaks.

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:And there is a difference between pointing out rudeness and verbally attacking someone. You might be too emotionally impaired to see that, but to the rest of us the distinction does in fact exist.

Once again. People get verbally attacked all the time. Calling someone a racist sexist bigot is in fact a verbal attack. And if they are actually those things, then it it's an attack that should be made. If you had an actual KKK nutbag promoting racism, the correct move is to verbally attack his stupidity.

Likewise, in PLs imaginary rape thread, if someone were really apologizing for rapists, the correct response is to verbally attack them.

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I understand your emotional problems give you a life harder than it needs to be, I completely feel you on that. However, no one has ever cut me slack on my emotional issues here. I eventually had to take a couple months off and work on altering my behavior. Even if someone doesn't "get" why some things are proper behavior and why some things are not, it CAN be learned.

It isn't fair that you were born with a decent brain but impaired ability to interact with other humans. It's not fair that you have to work you ass off to be able to learn what comes 100% instinctually to the rest of us. Life is hard for those of us whose brains don't do exactly what they are supposed to do, but them's the breaks.

Your sweet condescension is unwarranted. I have no emotional problems that give me a harder life. I enjoy my life more than you or Crissa, from what I can see on this forum.

I do "get" why things are "proper behavior" I just disagree that the unthinking forces that have shaped "proper behavior" are superior to reason. I could learn to obey some given person's conception of proper behavior, whether it be you, or Crissa, since of course, your definitions have very little overlap, but I have no reason to do so.

I think the general tone has degraded because of a lack of things to keep anyone busy otherwise. No new systems are exciting and the most interesting gaming-related news is the SR stuff.

The aggressive responses on that thread were really unfortunate. I pointed my tabletop group to this board to look at some stuff and their universal response was, "what a bunch of assholes". They didn't have comments on the gaming-related threads. Their only real impression? Assholes.

There's something to be said for having a little playground where we can all call each other cocksuckers, but there's also something to be said for not shitting all over new posters asking naive questions, possible trolls or not. Just a little patience would be nice.

Hell, a little bit of civility would be nice.

It appears that we've (collectively) dug into this mindset where, just because Kaelik, Crissa, Roy, Phone Lobster, whoever, has said something that one personally disagrees with, that everything they say in the future is valueless and unworthy of respect.

The whole point of being free to tell people to suck a barrel of cocks when they're being retarded is to wait for them to be retarded first. Also, just because someone is being retarded right now doesn't mean they'll be that way in the future. This can't work if too many people begin with the presumption of retardation in regards to a specific poster, and have no willingness or ability to change that opinion. Personally, I don't think that anyone that posts here regularly is capable of that level of uselessness (though, not all bullshit-to-content ratios are equal). Also, I thought we were trying to teach people to be smarter, not drive them out.

You don't have to like someone's political apologetics to derive value from their comments about how to pace a game plot. You don't have to agree with another person's mechanical masochism to dig on their ideas for a campaign setting. Basically, we need to stop trying to keep score.

[/fluffy let's-all-get-along bullshit rant]

It does seem better alot better to view it as a hazing ritual or something. Trial by fire or baptism in snake-infested waters.

violence in the media wrote:Hell, a little bit of civility would be nice.
[/fluffy let's-all-get-along bullshit rant]

My name is Richard Hughes and I approve this message.

I would love to grow the pie higher for this place, too.

So from now on, I Lago will hereby relinquish from any personal attacks or insults directed at another poster. I still reserve the right to call Loran Coleman and Andy Collins and Mike Mearls rat bastards.

DragonChild wrote: I once opened a thread on the WOTC forums about how a 3.0 Ranger 10/Forsaker 10 was overpowered. I got better. This wasn't because I was screamed at, yelled at for being a troll, and so on. It's because people like Josh explained in simple, rational terms, without any insults, on how I was being a dumbass.

Yeah, I think most of us were like that at some point. It takes some hard evidence before you actually start to analyze the game and change your way of thinking.

I don't have a problem with insults if the guy is deliberately pretty much being stupid, like Elennsar, but someone just asking for random advice about stuff like that shouldn't be immediately bashed, even if it is somewhat of a newbie question.

That honestly didn't even seem like a troll question, it was a simple question with an easy answer. Not something like "My DM said monks are broken!"

Nicklance wrote:It does seem better alot better to view it as a hazing ritual or something. Trial by fire or baptism in snake-infested waters.

Ugh, I'm going back to Nifty if that happens. I don't want this place to become the next 4-chan.

I do think the need to 'punish ignorance' goes too far and is too readily used.

I certainly think the loss of 3E as a supported system as the point in which the IMHO started going downhill compared to before. Few here like 4E, so gaming talk just kind of meanders with the lack of D&D as a conversation starter.

It certainly makes me want to punch all of those people who went "nobody is taking your old books away" when 4E was coming; because as far as your ability to talk about an older edition, your old books practically have been taken away.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I don't want this place to become the next 4-chan.

Too late!

I would agree that vitriol is not always the best way to get people to listen to you. If a new poster displays ignorance of the topic, a carefully explained counterpoint is more likely to elicit a positive response than "Hur hur, STFU retard troll!". Its also less likely to make you come across as some frothing neckbeard.

Take Frank's posts. Whilst he sometimes (IMHO) goes a little overboard when someone makes a point they obviously haven't thought through as far as he has, he always provides some constructive criticism. The verbal assault is a little easier to swallow if it at least contains a reasoned argument that you can respond to.

If they still come out with Oberoni Fallacy and "min maxers are the devil" after that, then you tell them to suck a barrel of cocks.