Pathfinder alternate class ability

[virgil]

On their blog, they show some class abilities to bring in for favored classes, here

One I'm particularly curious about is the one where sorcerers get an additional spell known (one lower than their highest) added to their spell list every level. Does anyone have an opinion as to whether this is too good a buff for them?

[hogarth]

On their blog, they show some class abilities to bring in for favored classes, here

One I'm particularly curious about is the one where sorcerers get an additional spell known (one lower than their highest) added to their spell list every level. Does anyone have an opinion as to whether this is too good a buff for them?

It's "too good" in the sense that it sucks to be a non-human sorcerer. It certainly doesn't make human sorcerers super-awesome, though.

The elven wizard one sucks, though; how often are you using your "pew pew lazors" ability that you need a bunch more uses? Most of those abilities just get obsolete eventually anyways.

[Juton]

I like it, but I'm a munchkin at heart. It makes Sorcerers better, but not better than Wizards. I think this will end up going on every Sorcerer and because of that people will think it's broken, like how some people thought power attack must be broken because everyone ends up taking it.

They should have monkeyed with the Sorcerer's spells known during the playtest to find a balance to make them more competitive, and made it so they learn new levels of spells the same time that wizards do. I like this option but I forsee a lot of bitching and whining, and maybe even some backpedaling from Buhlman.

[TOZ]

I think this will end up going on every Sorcerer and because of that people will think it's broken,

Too late, judging by the comments on the blog discussion. Link.

[hogarth]

They should have monkeyed with the Sorcerer's spells known during the playtest to find a balance to make them more competitive, and made it so they learn new levels of spells the same time that wizards do.

I could even live with the delayed spellcasting ability if they added more spells known. Specifically, I really hate having only one spell known whenever my sorcerer learns a new spell level.

[Juton]

I think this will end up going on every Sorcerer and because of that people will think it's broken,

Too late, judging by the comments on the blog discussion. Link.

Fuck .... , every time I read a post on the Paizo site my brain hurts.

[Wyzzard]

As usual, the Paizo boards are like watching slaves in a derp mine.

I'm not saying this is trivial to do, but do you know any way in which you can get 20 extra known spells?

Play a Wizard?


It's really quite sad. Buhlman finally has a flash of inspiration, and then all the paizils immidiately go apeshit and cry OP.

[magnuskn]

As usual, the Paizo boards are like watching slaves in a derp mine.

I'm not saying this is trivial to do, but do you know any way in which you can get 20 extra known spells?

Play a Wizard?


It's really quite sad. Buhlman finally has a flash of inspiration, and then all the paizils immidiately go apeshit and cry OP.

Now, now, don't go generalizing. I love the change and a lot of other people are saying it is okay. It's basically 5-8 people having problems with it, with three being the main opposition.

[Juton]

As usual, the Paizo boards are like watching slaves in a derp mine.

I'm not saying this is trivial to do, but do you know any way in which you can get 20 extra known spells?

Play a Wizard?


It's really quite sad. Buhlman finally has a flash of inspiration, and then all the paizils immidiately go apeshit and cry OP.

Now, now, don't go generalizing. I love the change and a lot of other people are saying it is okay. It's basically 5-8 people having problems with it, with three being the main opposition.

I actually stuck with the thread, there where a few people who got, and where able to explain it eloquently. There was one guy 'BryonD' though who really threw off the signal to noise ratio. I think the Paizo boards are improving and maybe in a few years they'll get to where 339 was.

[K]

The Sorcerer ability is exactly equal to a feat, and that feat is called Extra Known Spell and it's from Complete Arcane. Same mechanics and everything.

Since something is being given up from the Human template, it's basically a straight feat swap since you are giving up something you could get from a feat for something you get with a feat.

[hogarth]

The Sorcerer ability is exactly equal to a feat, and that feat is called Extra Known Spell and it's from Complete Arcane. Same mechanics and everything.

Since something is being given up from the Human template, it's basically a straight feat swap since you are giving up something you could get from a feat for something you get with a feat.

It's actually just called Extra Spell.

The way a "favored class" works in Pathfinder is that you designate any one class as your favored class. Then whenever you take a level in that class, you get either +1 hit point or +1 skill point (your choice). Now they're adding some new options; in this case, if you're a human with favored class 'sorcerer', you can instead choose a new spell known, as noted in the blog. So in theory that's like getting the Extra Spell feat every level in exchange for giving up either +1 hp or +1 skill point.

Of course, Extra Spell is a terrible feat (seriously, who would spend a feat to know one more spell from one's current spell list?).

[K]

The Sorcerer ability is exactly equal to a feat, and that feat is called Extra Known Spell and it's from Complete Arcane. Same mechanics and everything.

Since something is being given up from the Human template, it's basically a straight feat swap since you are giving up something you could get from a feat for something you get with a feat.

It's actually just called Extra Spell.

The way a "favored class" works in Pathfinder is that you designate any one class as your favored class. Then whenever you take a level in that class, you get either +1 hit point or +1 skill point (your choice). Now they're adding some new options; in this case, if you're a human with favored class 'sorcerer', you can instead choose a new spell known, as noted in the blog. So in theory that's like getting the Extra Spell feat every level in exchange for giving up either +1 hp or +1 skill point.

Of course, Extra Spell is a terrible feat (seriously, who would spend a feat to know one more spell from one's current spell list?).

Extra Spell is a terrible feat. Like, so bad I seriously couldn't remember the name and I'm a longtime Sorcerer player. I mean, as a Pathfinder Sorcerer they toss it around extra spells for free as part of the Sorcerer class with all the extra stuff like free feats and random-ass powers.

But are you sure that's all they are trading? I mean, from that article orcs lose Ferocity to get a bite attack, so it it follows that humans lose their skill points or free feat.

[LR]

But are you sure that's all they are trading? I mean, from that article orcs lose Ferocity to get a bite attack, so it it follows that humans lose their skill points or free feat.

That's an alternate racial trait. The Sorcerer ability is an alternate favored class bonus. The first two abilities listed in the article are the equivalents of variant races while the other three are substitution levels. The former swap around racial traits, and the latter swap around class features. In this case, it swaps out the bonus you get for being a Human Sorcerer (+1 HP/SP at every level) for an "equivalent" bonus (+1 spell known at every level). The Sorcerer keeps his +1 skill point/level for being a Human, but loses the free points he gets for being a Human Sorcerer.

[Psychic Robot]

Once an elven wizard takes this power twice, he gains an additional use of that ability. Want more, take a look at this gnome bard favored class option.

Bard: Add 1 to the gnome's total number of bardic performance rounds per day.

Holy shit, an additional round per day. Stop the fucking presses, this is way OP.

[hogarth]

That's an alternate racial trait. The Sorcerer ability is an alternate favored class bonus.

What he said. The blog is talking about two separate rule variants.

[K]

That's an alternate racial trait. The Sorcerer ability is an alternate favored class bonus.

What he said. The blog is talking about two separate rule variants.

Ok, I somehow glanced over the section about what favored classes get in Pathfinder.

That being said, I'm almost positive it's not an extra spell per level of Sorcerer. I think it's a one-time bonus of one spell in exchange for your +1 skill point or HP per level.

[virgil]

It's very much an option that you choose to take each level in place of the skill or hit point you would've gotten for that specific level. Jason confirms this in several places in that thread.

For example, the elven wizard option, in-text: "Once an elven wizard takes this power twice, he gains an additional use of that ability." This allows for a max of 13+Int mod per day, in place of 20 hit points or 20 skill points (or some combo thereof).

[K]

It's very much an option that you choose to take each level in place of the skill or hit point you would've gotten for that specific level. Jason confirms this in several places in that thread.

For example, the elven wizard option, in-text: "Once an elven wizard takes this power twice, he gains an additional use of that ability." This allows for a max of 13+Int mod per day, in place of 20 hit points or 20 skill points (or some combo thereof).

Ok, you are in trouble because you made me read that thread. I couldn't believe he would say something like that and I had to see it with my own eyes. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, and now I feel like a fool.

Jason is a moron. There was doubt before where I thought he was just a well-intentioned fool who acted in bad faith, but now I understand that he doesn't understand this game even one bit.

It's clearly apparent he's never even SEEN a Sorcerer being played above level 7, or else he would understand his mistake. His points of "being one level behind on spells is actually a big deal" and "some more lower level spells don't really matter a bit" are valid points..... below level 7. Before you hit level 8, some extra second level and first level or even bloody cantrips are not going to change your life. In fact, they will pump you up to the level of a decent character so that you have an option for most situations.

Extra 3rd or higher spells is crazy good. Third level is when you leave the human sphere of "hey, do we charm that guy with a spell or use diplomacy" and enter the world of "no, we use a suggestion to completely get whatever we want." It's the point where every animal with the word "Dire" in front of it's name is defeated by the wizard with fly and a bow he's not even proficient in.

I mean, I've done some armchair game design where I didn't test the rules, but this is egregious. This shows a fundamental misconception of how the game is played above and beyond "and yeh, it had to be tried out before I saw it didn't work."

[Crissa]

Well, at least they're getting into add-ons which may be power creepy, but they can be used for interesting creep as well.

-Crissa

[magnuskn]

Depending on the group make-up, a skill point can be as important as a spell. Of course if people prefer to play "Bow down to my AUTHORITAH!" characters who constantly use enchantment spells on NPC's, instead of talking to them, it may feel differently for that kind of player.

[Kaelik]

The worst fuckin part is that it's still only one spell that is not your highest level each level. So in addition to making Sorcerers super badass, it still doesn't solve the stupid fucking "I'm level 6, so I cast Stinking Cloud 4 times a day." problem.

Depending on the group make-up, a skill point can be as important as a spell. Of course if people prefer to play "Bow down to my AUTHORITAH!" characters who constantly use enchantment spells on NPC's, instead of talking to them, it may feel differently for that kind of player.

No, one skill point is never going to be worth a spell known of a Sorcerer. Not one skill point per level, one skill point.

You can either have a +10 to Bluff, or you can have 10 additional spells known.

You can either have a +3 to UMD, or you can have 3 more spells known.

[magnuskn]

The worst fuckin part is that it's still only one spell that is not your highest level each level. So in addition to making Sorcerers super badass, it still doesn't solve the stupid fucking "I'm level 6, so I cast Stinking Cloud 4 times a day." problem.

Depending on the group make-up, a skill point can be as important as a spell. Of course if people prefer to play "Bow down to my AUTHORITAH!" characters who constantly use enchantment spells on NPC's, instead of talking to them, it may feel differently for that kind of player.

No, one skill point is never going to be worth a spell known of a Sorcerer. Not one skill point per level, one skill point.

You can either have a +10 to Bluff, or you can have 10 additional spells known.

You can either have a +3 to UMD, or you can have 3 more spells known.

Oh, I agree that it is crazy good. But I don't see myself absolutely needing it all the time. Although that is, of course, subject to change with the new spells coming out in the APG.

[hogarth]

Extra 3rd or higher spells is crazy good. Third level is when you leave the human sphere of "hey, do we charm that guy with a spell or use diplomacy" and enter the world of "no, we use a suggestion to completely get whatever we want." It's the point where every animal with the word "Dire" in front of it's name is defeated by the wizard with fly and a bow he's not even proficient in.

I'm not following you. Are you saying "being able to cast 3rd or higher spells is crazy good" or "knowing two more 3rd level spells at level 9 is crazy good for a sorcerer"?

A level 9 sorcerer can already cast Suggestion or Fly, if that's what he's into. Having another couple of choices is very handy, but I wouldn't say "crazy good".

[Kaelik]

Oh, I agree that it is crazy good. But I don't see myself absolutely needing it all the time. Although that is, of course, subject to change with the new spells coming out in the APG.

I don't see myself needing it ever. But I don't see one skill point being better than one spell known except at levels 1-3, where it's a zeroth level spell.

[magnuskn]

Extra 3rd or higher spells is crazy good. Third level is when you leave the human sphere of "hey, do we charm that guy with a spell or use diplomacy" and enter the world of "no, we use a suggestion to completely get whatever we want." It's the point where every animal with the word "Dire" in front of it's name is defeated by the wizard with fly and a bow he's not even proficient in.

I'm not following you. Are you saying "being able to cast 3rd or higher spells is crazy good" or "knowing two more 3rd level spells at level 9 is crazy good for a sorcerer"?

A level 9 sorcerer can already cast Suggestion or Fly, if that's what he's into. Having another couple of choices is very handy, but I wouldn't say "crazy good".

Well, third level is for some reason the one level where I am even contemplating giving up a fourth and fifth level spell for more thirds. For whatever reason it has the best mix of offense, defense and utility.

I don't see myself needing it ever. But I don't see one skill point being better than one spell known except at levels 1-3, where it's a zeroth level spell.

Well, I'd rather say it's one more complete skill for the already skill starved sorcerer... but for my personal taste getting additional spells over 16 levels is better, too. But it depends on the player, IMO.